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Post by funbun on Mar 20, 2021 20:46:53 GMT
pt3r What do you do when your body is not capable of playing the horn anymore? I seriously don't know, I guess I'll go full on electronics. I don't dare to think about that. But for the moment I like to believe that daily practice keeps the joints flexible and the sax playing is also a form of breathing ecercises I hope. I hear you. I'm already at that point. My back is so bad that I can't play saxophone anymore. Even a soprano would screw up my neck. |
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Post by pt3r on Mar 20, 2021 20:53:27 GMT
I'm so sorry to hear that man. That is also why I immediately bought the best neckstrap I could afford 'cause from day one I felt that a horn weighs a ton after long enough practice, shitty straps will damage your neck. If necessary I'll get a bass sax harness instead of a neck strap. Mind you a guitar can also be a killer on your back.
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Post by funbun on Mar 20, 2021 21:03:52 GMT
Yeah, I had the best neckstraps, custom built performance chairs. Had my horn totally modified to best fit my hands ergonomically. All this while I was young and in good health. Time always wins. Gravity always pulls. Not all of us are going to make it to the age of Sonny Rollins and Dizzy Gillespie did and still be able to play.
I found that it was time for me to think like a composer and not like a performer.
My modular doesn't care about any of these things. I can make new sound and new music all the time. I have composed 12 tunes since Christmas, enough for two albums. Because I've eliminated the need to maintain chops, all my energy is devoted to composing new music. That is an advantage.
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cpruby
Junior Member
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Post by cpruby on Mar 21, 2021 3:24:49 GMT
I'm back and I want to talk about structure. Everything I say will have exceptions, but there are many general themes. A lot of jazz musicians know tunes - pieces that are referred to as standards. If they don't know it, then they probably are able to sight read it. Big bands are often more orchestrated and thus have specific parts and sheet music for said parts, that is until it gets to the solo section. Combos often use lead sheets, which are a tune condensed to a single page. These are compiled into volumes called fake books. It features two pieces of information: (1) the melody and (2) the chord progression. From that information, a group would then decide on the structure of the performance - and some of that structure can be improvised. So they determine how the piece will be organized (such as intro -> melody [often referred to as the "head"] -> solos [determining order for solos] -> return to melody -> end). The solo sections will often use the harmonic progression underlying the melody. A lot of standards are old musical show tunes that often follow a 32-bar AABA format (meaning that there's a motif that is repeated, a second motif is introduced, and then returns to the original motif). So let's find a tune to use as an example. I'd like to use a harmonically simple (not necessarily conceptually simple) piece and "So What" by Miles Davis off of A Kind of Blue fits the bill. The song uses a composed introduction between the bass and piano and then the main melody (A) starts at 0:34 with the bass playing the melody and the drums start to trickle in. The piano then accents the empty spaces. When the A phrase repeats at 0:48, the horns play with the piano and the drums ramp up a little more. The B phrase is at 1:02, and you might say "isn't that the same phrase?" and the answer is yes. It is the same phrase, just transposed up a semi-tone. The A phrase repeats at 1:17 as it returns to the original key. After that, it is off to the races with solos starting at 1:31. The solos are adhering to the harmony of the main melody where they do the semi-tone shift with the B section. Solos wrap up at 8:16 as the bass starts up the main melody and the AABA phrases are repeated twice with the instrumentation slowly dropping out at the repetition. This is the general structure of many jazz tunes. So how does the music actually get made? You can tell that the drummer isn't just playing a 16-step beat, the piano is shifting rhythms and voicing, and the bass is having an ebbing and flowing movement to it. The musicians are actively listening to each other and reacting to each other. This interaction is the interesting thing about jazz and it is difficult to capture that in a modular performance when it often is a solo venture. Each element is a whole musical journey by itself - people spend years to learn how to play piano under solos, how to play walking basslines, and improvise. I'll probably post more about some of these elements so you can steal stylistic elements for modular performances. |
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Post by pt3r on Mar 21, 2021 9:01:46 GMT
The main thing about modular synth that we all need to remember is that is isn't about adhering to the cultural norms that have produced the music. Modular is all about the sound. We craft, patch and create new sounds that no one has heard before, then create new soundscapes or new music from those sounds. That's not how jazz works. Jazz has it own culture, norms and etiquette. Look at how quickly some one pointed out the culture of wood shedding and improvising on your own, basically discounting even the thought put putting a jazz tune into a sequencer. That's fine on a cultural level, but that's one reason music dies. Once culture defines the music, it can no longer grow and change because it becomes about fitting into a certain cultural expectation. It dies like Latin. This is exactly why Don Buchla refused to hook up a keyboard to a modular. Simply attaching that keyboard means you've now attached a 450 year tradition on an instrument that is capable of so much more that what came before. Once you slap on a keyboard, it's no longer about the sound and the music. It becomes about meeting a cultural expectation that may not have anything to do with what you're truly trying to do. When you show up with a modular synth with wires dropping like a Frankenstein experiment gone wrong, people don't know what to think of it. They hear sound and music they never knew possible, their eyes open, and their minds prime to learn. You just bypassed any expectation, jadedness that came in the door. Plop a keyboard onto the synth, and all that goes away. They'll expect you to adhear to everything they have predefined in their own heads. If you mention that you're trying to play jazz on a modular synth, you're expected to meet all the cultural norms that have defined jazz culture. That's the sad, pathetic truth of modern society. Most musicians don't listen to sound. They only analyse and replicate pre-existing forms and structures. The thought of doing something new mostly never crosses their minds, or it's so offensive that they would condemn anyone to prison for even mentioning anything new. Lots of interesting points and observations made here, I agree that a modular (without keyboard) can help push the boundaries of what is accepted in music by the sheer white canvas aspect of the instrument, however the will of pushing of boundaries lies foremost with the of the musician; if (s)he only adheres to preconceived (un)written genre rules and theories then there will be no more musical evolution. On top of that we must not forget that western music education system and its liked music theory is quite racist and colonial to say the least.
The (AE) modular will definitely help more in playing with non western scales (and rhythms depending on you clock divisions  ) make use of micro tonalities etc... than let's say a piano or a guitar (as they are thought in western music schools). |
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Post by MaxRichardson97 on Mar 21, 2021 9:41:44 GMT
Huuuge jazz fan! I love the obvious artists; Dizzy, Miles, Monk, Parker etc. - but my main instrument is the piano, so three artists really stand out, being Keith Jarrett, Bill Evans and Joe Zawinul.
I used to work in a theatre here in Liverpool that was known for jazz gigs, it was a great job - was able to catch so many artists live for work! Neil Cowley, Sons of Kemet, Mammal Hands, Jason Rebello, Courtney Pine, Darius Brubeck (son of Dave Brubeck!), Pascal Schumacher. Really great job!
I don't even touch jazz with the AE with a bargepole, it's personally not for me. Much prefer to make techno and electronica with the AE, and save jazz for the piano! I play a lot of jazz on the piano, and do a few improv streams on Reddit for like 40m of standards and noodling when I feel like it! I'm a huge fan of Keith Jarrett and Bill Evans as I say, so a lot of my practice these days consists of really getting into their records and trying to emulate little techniques and things.
In regards to an album tip, two spring to mind - Time Remembered by Evans, and The Köln Concert by Jarrett. The latter is in my top five records of all time!
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Post by NightMachines on Mar 21, 2021 10:13:10 GMT
improv streams on Reddit for like 40m of standards and noodling when I feel like it! Would you share a link to those? I find it interesting to listen to what our community members play besides their AE Modulars. |
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Post by MaxRichardson97 on Mar 21, 2021 10:15:39 GMT
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Post by admin on Mar 21, 2021 10:32:21 GMT
This is a great session and I can definitely hear the Keith Jarret influence! The Koeln Concert is also one of my top 10 albums! Always such an immense pleasure to listen to it. |
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Post by admin on Mar 21, 2021 10:45:41 GMT
Hello all, I'm just so happy and thankful for this thread! Thank you NightMachines for bringing this up and everyone for adding your incredible knowledge and insights to this discussion! This is why I think the AE Community is so special ... we just celebrate our diversity and enjoy the many different ways in which music can be created and enjoyed! I don't know much about Jazz, but there were albums that I enjoyed, mainly piano by Keith Jarret and Michel Petrucciani. I also enjoyed Headhunters by Herbie Hancock. When I lived in Berlin, I loved to see Jazz performances live, which is so much more enjoyable as you can see and feel that communication between the members of the band and also between them and the audience if it's played in a small club. I'm also not sure how to transfer this to the modular, but I love solos and improvisation so I'm improvising a lot on my tracks using the Keystep. But as funbun mentioned as well, as soon as you add a keyboard to the synth you add the weight of 450 years of musical structure which can completely stifle your creativity. Again, thanks all for the listening tips and advice ... and maybe we will hear more improvisation and "jazzy" modular performances. But as always .. it's important to have fun and to keep patching! |
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Post by MaxRichardson97 on Mar 21, 2021 10:48:20 GMT
This is a great session and I can definitely hear the Keith Jarret influence! The Koeln Concert is also one of my top 10 albums! Always such an immense pleasure to listen to it. Cheers Carsten! Too kind. Yep, Jarrett is a huge inspiration for me, I can just never get over how good he is at pacing music, building up the intensity when it's needed and slowing it down when it's getting repetitive. Mix that with Evans' harmonies and you've got the definitive jazz piano in my opinion! Have you heard his more recent releases? Munich 2016 is really different but it's a good listen, much more dissonant but it works! |
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Post by MikMo on Mar 21, 2021 11:17:49 GMT
The main thing about modular synth that we all need to remember is that is isn't about adhering to the cultural norms that have produced the music. Modular is all about the sound. We craft, patch and create new sounds that no one has heard before, then create new soundscapes or new music from those sounds. That's not how jazz works. Jazz has it own culture, norms and etiquette. Look at how quickly some one pointed out the culture of wood shedding and improvising on your own, basically discounting even the thought put putting a jazz tune into a sequencer. That's fine on a cultural level, but that's one reason music dies. Once culture defines the music, it can no longer grow and change because it becomes about fitting into a certain cultural expectation. It dies like Latin. This is exactly why Don Buchla refused to hook up a keyboard to a modular. Simply attaching that keyboard means you've now attached a 450 year tradition on an instrument that is capable of so much more that what came before. Once you slap on a keyboard, it's no longer about the sound and the music. It becomes about meeting a cultural expectation that may not have anything to do with what you're truly trying to do. When you show up with a modular synth with wires dropping like a Frankenstein experiment gone wrong, people don't know what to think of it. They hear sound and music they never knew possible, their eyes open, and their minds prime to learn. You just bypassed any expectation, jadedness that came in the door. Plop a keyboard onto the synth, and all that goes away. They'll expect you to adhear to everything they have predefined in their own heads. If you mention that you're trying to play jazz on a modular synth, you're expected to meet all the cultural norms that have defined jazz culture. That's the sad, pathetic truth of modern society. Most musicians don't listen to sound. They only analyse and replicate pre-existing forms and structures. The thought of doing something new mostly never crosses their minds, or it's so offensive that they would condemn anyone to prison for even mentioning anything new. That is so true. And this is part of the reason that i never really got onto the MIDI bandwagon. I was starting to be interested in synth's just as the first wave of modular kind of died out and MIDI was introduced. And i just felt like "no, nooooooo, can i please have all your MS20's thank you" |
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Post by funbun on Mar 21, 2021 12:26:14 GMT
MikMo That's exactly what Hans Zimmer did. When digital took over, he bought ever Roland 700 he could find at pennies on the dollar. The cool thing is we're still hearing those synths in every movie he scores to this day.
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Post by NightMachines on Mar 21, 2021 16:24:25 GMT
Another AE Modular try-out. A less strict rhythm on bass and the SOLINA, added decay modulation for all sounds, added upwards slew to the bass, etc. Changing clock speed and rhythms, while keeping a harmonic theme (more or less) ...
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Post by lukylutte on Mar 21, 2021 16:46:31 GMT
Nice! Make me went to try to be more jazzy with the modular  |
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Post by 101 on Mar 21, 2021 17:11:08 GMT
Jackson Jeffery Jackson.
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Post by NightMachines on Mar 21, 2021 19:56:48 GMT
What’s with so many Jazz records’ stereo imaging, by the way? I’m a headphones person, but many albums I’ve listened to have some really odd panning. Like drums on the left ear, horn on the right. Are those just remnants of early stereo music, which was not listend to on headphones, but on living room speaker systems?
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Post by MaxRichardson97 on Mar 21, 2021 23:13:41 GMT
A big part of it is because a lot of the early records were mixed like that, so it stayed! Drums are very often on the left.
Also, it gives a lot of clarity to hear parts in more detail. If Coltrane is on your right, your right ear can hear him in great detail, stuff like breath and that! So it's kind of a combination of tradition and emphasising the technique of the players.
A lot of contemporary stuff from the UK is mixed really well. Mammal Hands are well worth a spin!
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cpruby
Junior Member
Posts: 73
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Post by cpruby on Mar 22, 2021 3:03:42 GMT
Another little info dump, but I want to talk about jazz getting into places where it doesn't seem to belong. I think some of the jazz folks are thinking about how to play Giant Steps on a modular and some others are looking for elements of jazz to implement into modular. So what better way to talk about jazz influences by discussing how other cultures get inspired by jazz! I updated my history post with some of this information, so it might be a little repetitive, but I think it is worth repeating. Let's think of the Romani people. These are nomadic people of Europe who are often referred to as "gypsies" (this is an inaccurate and antiquated term and is often used to be offensive to some members of this community, so I will refrain from using it). Just by definition of being nomadic, it is impractical to have big and heavy possessions, and music often reflects this. There are plenty of stringed instruments, but a piano is nowhere to be found. An example of this (without jazz influence) can be seen with Taraf de Haidouks, a band of Romani people from Romania. Enter Django Reinhardt, a Manouche Romani (a subset of Romani-people from France), who played guitar. He played the tenor banjo to accompany Dixieland-styled jazz and applied what he learned to guitar. This Manouche influenced jazz often featured several guitars, a double bass, and a violin. No drumkit or piano in sight. The staccato emphasis of the 2 and 4 beats came from the percussive strumming of the guitar called "la pompe." The bass does not walk as much, and emphasizes the 1 and 3, much like a kick drum. Improvisation was still a key component and, much like with Taraf de Haidouks, featured virtuosic playing. Note that this preceded bebop, as these Manouche influenced musicians were playing in small combos like this in the 1930's. |
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Post by lukylutte on Mar 22, 2021 6:01:34 GMT
Interesting discussion! When I was a boy. It's Jazz Manouche which gave me the will to learn music and pick-up a guitar! There is enought diversity in Jazz that any one could found something that he'd like. From Classic standard Jazz, Latin Jazz, Fusion Jazz or Nu-jazz...
I saw some nice recommendation. If I could add some in nor particular order:
Yussef Kamaal
Erik Truffaz.
Or my favorite Manouch duet:
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Post by keurslagerkurt on Mar 22, 2021 13:24:34 GMT
I just realised, the fantastic Floating Points uses his modular synths on records & live performances. He is considered a 'jazz artist' by the internet, but he's somewhere on the cross-section of jazz & electronic music (sometimes almost techno-ish). Lots of intense solo-ing, chordprogressions and off-kilter rhythms in his stuff.
In this live session you can see and hear his eurorack at 20:50, but I def recommend watching it all!
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Post by Gaëtan on Mar 25, 2021 8:03:15 GMT
I really like Jazz but I'm more into the pre-60s stuff : Louis Armstrong, Count Basie, Duke Ellington, Benny Goodman, etc. I just love the raw energy and emotions that emanate from those records.
I think jazz is really difficult to translate into the modular world, because the gear is really not well adapted to the conventions of jazz. Jazz makes use of complex chords, chord changes, key modulations, swung rhythms, etc., none of which are easy to achieve in the modular world because of the very nature of the modules and circuits we use. At least that's if you want to make Jazz 100% in the modular. Integrating a modular into a band is probably easier.
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namke
wonkystuff
electronics and sound, what's not to like?!
Posts: 686
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Post by namke on Mar 25, 2021 10:05:08 GMT
I was recently reminded of this: It definitely has a jazz 'feel', although not swung - more harmonic/chord choices (in fact probably just the repeated two chords!). Mind you, Tom Jenkinson is a super-proficient jazz bass player I think the same can be said of (for example) Goldie's 'Timeless' album: It seems to me that the original jungle/drum'n'bass artists leaned very heavily on jazz...  |
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Post by MaxRichardson97 on Mar 25, 2021 11:01:35 GMT
I was recently reminded of this: It definitely has a jazz 'feel', although not swung - more harmonic/chord choices (in fact probably just the repeated two chords!). Mind you, Tom Jenkinson is a super-proficient jazz bass player I think the same can be said of (for example) Goldie's 'Timeless' album: It seems to me that the original jungle/drum'n'bass artists leaned very heavily on jazz... A lot of the new Hospital Records stuff is really jazzy. London Elektricity is great, some amazing harmonies! |
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Post by 101 on Mar 25, 2021 14:19:24 GMT
Goldie Timeless is a classic. Like so much stuff that is similar or 'jazzy' in nature. Its a very blurred line.
Always liked a bit of Portico and I think they're all classically trained.
I like a lot of Black Acre records stuff as their stuff sounds contemporary jazz like. Memotone does some great electronic type jazz.
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) make use of micro tonalities etc... than let's say a piano or a guitar (as they are thought in western music schools).
