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Post by NightMachines on Mar 19, 2021 20:35:11 GMT
One week ago, I discovered Jazz music. What?! Yes. It’s way too late and I’m quite embarrassed. While I’ve certainly been exposed to Jazz music and its sub-genres in my life, I’ve never specifically looked into it and I didn’t know anything about it other than “Louis Armstrong”, “improv”, “difficult” and “it’s more about the notes they DON’T play” But then I - very randomly - came upon an hour long edit of a video game’s menu music on YouTube. I couldn’t stop listening. The game? Doesn’t matter, don’t care. I needed more Jazz. With synths! More synths! And a piano lesson! And even more synths! Yes, I‘ve grown quite fond of Oscar Peterson. A Wikipedia rabbit hole followed. A Bandcamp rabbit hole followed. As a hobbyist musician, I of course also looked into how to play Jazz ... then came to the conclusion that I never should have sold my big Linnstrument ... then came to realize that this wouldn’t make me be able to play Jazz any quicker (I‘m not good at practicing anymore)... then thought that I should just explore my own sub-genre of pre-programmed modular synth Jazz (as viewers had somewhat related my jams to once or twice recently). And this is where you might come in:- Who’s your favorite Jazz artist?
- What’s your favorite Jazz style? I feel quite drawn to the Bebop concept after my first week.
- What’s your favorite Jazz album?
- What defines Jazz for you? Is it the ride cymbal rhythm and a walking bass line? Is it a ii-V-I chord progression? Is it fluid time signatures? Is it utter chaos with trumpets?
- How could one compose Jazz music on our AE Modular synthesizers?
Tell me about Jazz EDIT: Lots of stuff to listen to in this post below: forum.aemodular.com/post/11228/threadThoughts about playing “Jazz” on our AE Modular synths: forum.aemodular.com/post/11229/threadA nice Jazz history writeup by cpruby : forum.aemodular.com/post/11239/threadfunbun posts some cool Jazz involving modular synths: forum.aemodular.com/post/11245/threadI try to add jazzy elements to an AE Modular jam: forum.aemodular.com/post/11242/threadcpruby returns with a post about Jazz song structure: forum.aemodular.com/post/11256/threadMore AE Modular jamming: forum.aemodular.com/post/11268/thread
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Post by ashito on Mar 19, 2021 23:09:16 GMT
Hello. For me Jazz is all about these albums Miles Davis == Dark Magus John Coltrane == A Love Supreme Alice Coltrane == Journey in Satchidananda Pahroah Sanders == Karma
If you're liking the more Spiritual (Black Classical) try
Enjoy
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Post by MikMo on Mar 20, 2021 0:05:10 GMT
A while back FunBun posted in the forum something about listening to all different kinds of music, "High art" music and everything. it took me a while to realize that i have been locking my self into a rather narrow spectrum of music for a long time. So i decided to try to listen to someting way out of my comfor zone every day (well almost every day). I have now been around medieval folk music, Wagner, blue grass, and jazz to mention a few styles.
And Coltrane is just amazing.
I grew up (in the 60' s 70's) with parents who had different musical taste. Both were somewhat into classical music, but my father was into 40ties 50ties jazz and my mother more into Beatles, Stones, Janis Joplin and all that stuff. . Somehow i wrote off jazz, as unlistenable. Don't know why. just happened.
Seems i have some catching up to do.
Mikael
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Post by dmoney2000 on Mar 20, 2021 1:53:15 GMT
There's all types of jazz, from the high art variety for ambitious listeners, to easy going and fun. I like all the artists listed above, let me also suggest the great thelonius monk. I'm also a sucker for fusion stuff like mahavishnu and return to forever.
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Lugia
Wiki Editors
Ridiculously busy...ish.
Posts: 556
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Post by Lugia on Mar 20, 2021 5:26:36 GMT
Hmmmm...jazz...
This stuff sneaks into my work in various ways. For example, the entire modal concept that Miles tossed in everyones' laps starting with "Kind of Blue". Or the beautiful chordal comping behind Coltrane, via the amazing McCoy Tyner. Or the gleeful chaos that turns up so often on Ornette Coleman's albums. And on and on...
Some suggestions:
John Coltrane: "Crescent". Yeah, you hear about "A Love Supreme" a lot, but "Crescent" is the annoyingly-overlooked lead-up to that. Contains "Wise One"...good luck keeping a dry eye during that!
Miles Davis: "Kind of Blue", of course. But also the Prestige "foursome" with Trane, "Cookin'", "Workin'", "Steamin'" and "Relaxin'", plus the electric period ("Dark Magus" is an album that I've described as "the ultimate cop-chase movie soundtrack", and if you want to check the Miles-Stockhausen linkages, check "Get Up with It").
Eric Dolphy: "Out to Lunch". Spiky, a little cold and hostile...one of the greats of the early "new thing" period.
Ornette Coleman: "This is Our Music" and "Change of the Century" are great intros to his complex work.
Charles Mingus: "The Black Saint and the Sinner Lady". Man...just GET this!
Bill Evans: "Conversations with Myself". Multitracked improv piano from the early 1960s...way ahead of the curve!
Art Ensemble of Chicago: "Fanfare for the Warriors". An awesome album from the AACM pacesetters.
Pharoah Sanders: "Summum Bukmun Umyun". The step past Coltrane...a truly great "new thing" release.
Ahmad Jamal: "Happy Moods". Jamal's playing is what they're talking about when people say jazz is about the "notes you don't hear". Amazing sense of space with this trio release.
Wes Montgomery: "Boss Guitar". The title is VERY apt...Montgomery's playing is a cornerstone of the "Naptown sound" out of Indianapolis.
John Surman: "Withholding Pattern". Later work, possibly one of his finest ECM releases, Surman does reeds against sequenced VCS3 patterns...very spacious, simple, eloquent.
...I could go on, but that ought to be enough confusion for now. ;-)
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Post by NightMachines on Mar 20, 2021 9:50:58 GMT
Thanks for all the suggestions so far. I‘ve compiled a bunch of YouTue videos of them:
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Post by NightMachines on Mar 20, 2021 10:01:07 GMT
Now on to the next big question: How do we play “Jazz” (or something close to it) on our AE Modular synthesizers?
- Playing simple walking Bass lines with the SEQ16 and SEQ8 should be easy.
- Modulating speed and rhythm shouldn’t be hard either, for example with the MM-DIV.
- How can we create those swinging percussion patterns though? Mixing both on-beat triggers with off-beat triggers, delayed by the 2ENV, maybe?
- We should be able to play some Jazz 7th chords and chord progressions with the SOLINA module, I suppose.
- Using the QUANTIZER could possibly make it easy to generate improvisational lead sequences using a mix of regular sequencers and random generators, like the RBSS.
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namke
wonkystuff
electronics and sound, what's not to like?!
Posts: 686
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Post by namke on Mar 20, 2021 10:12:09 GMT
Of course don’t forget Herbie Hancock — having been in Miles’ group, he went out under his own name and came up with some great stuff. Ones that immediately spring to mind are “Empyrean Isles” and (of course) “Headhunters” — much more of a synth-jazz feel to the latter one.
I’m also a pretty big fan of Miles, things like “Black Satin” from “On The Corner” are just out and out funky — the 70s albums like “Big Fun” and the previously mentioned “Get Up With It” are great explorations of tone and structure.
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Post by keurslagerkurt on Mar 20, 2021 12:48:31 GMT
I'm a pretty 'basic bitch' when it comes to jazz (Miles Davis - Kind of Blue is a fav like almost everyone starting out i guess haha), and also Coltrane, Herbie Hancock,..
If you are looking into modern stuff which mixes in synths, samples, soundscapes, I would however also recommend some great more recent stuff:
The absolutely phenomenal Flying Lotus album 'You're Dead' which also features a lot of Herbie Hancock going ham on it. But also features tons of synths, Thundercat, and even Kendrick Lamar!
Thundercats solo stuff is also a great blend of wild jazz, pop and anime-geekstuff.
And there is the more classic, but also fantastic Kamasi Washington (his 'The Epic' album is great) who manages to blend mind-bending jazz with a Street Fighter showdown in this clip:
And concerning swing: the Topograph drum sequencer can have swing!
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Post by pt3r on Mar 20, 2021 16:24:49 GMT
One week ago, I discovered Jazz music. ...- Who’s your favorite Jazz artist?
- What’s your favorite Jazz style? I feel quite drawn to the Bebop concept after my first week.
- What’s your favorite Jazz album?
- What defines Jazz for you? Is it the ride cymbal rhythm and a walking bass line? Is it a ii-V-I chord progression? Is it fluid time signatures? Is it utter chaos with trumpets?
- How could one compose Jazz music on our AE Modular synthesizers?
...
Favourite artist(s) John Coltrane, Charlie Parker, Ornette Coleman, John Zorn, Thelonious Monk, Hancock, Miles, Mary Halverson, Albert Ayler, Jakob Bro, Albert Ayler, Anthony Braxton, Cecil Taylor, Eric Dolphy ...
Favourite style; freejazz, bebop, and modal jazz, no dixieland for me thanks. Favourite album: A love supreme / The Shape of jazz to Come Jazz is the art of improvisation, the ability to solo in a meaning full way over the the chords changes. No wrong notes but some notes are less wrong than others :-)
AE is just another instrument, Jazz is a musical language, once you can speak that language you can speak it through any instrument.
I don't want to sound like Branford Marsalis but (Pre)programmed jazz IMHO is an oxymoron. You have to put the work and effort in it yourself not your sequencer . Take a twelve bar blues and learn to improvise over its changes, learn to play standards both lead and comping, study the chord progressions...
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Post by pt3r on Mar 20, 2021 16:59:15 GMT
After all, programming giant steps in a sequencer does not have any musical accomplishment, after all every one can look up the score in a real book. You being able to play the chord changes and improvising over them, now that's a complete different thing.
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Post by NightMachines on Mar 20, 2021 17:45:45 GMT
AE is just another instrument, Jazz is a musical language, once you can speak that language you can speak it through any instrument. Let's be a bit more specific maybe. How would the Jazz language translate to the AE Modular? E.g. we can't easily play chords on a modular synth and often have rather rigid clock patterns. What would be a solution to these limitations? How could we play Jazz without chords and achieve swinging clock triggers? Just two examples. I don't want to sound like Branford Marsalis but (Pre)programmed jazz IMHO is an oxymoron. You have to put the work and effort in it yourself not your sequencer . I disagree. Being able to compose/program Jazz (or any other genre) would mean that one understands it, so it can be a great theoretical way of learning the language - especially if you can't physically play keys or stringed instruments. Again, I'm wondering how to translate Jazz stuff to AE Modular, for example creating a walking bass line on an available AE Modular sequencer module. One can always improvise manually on top of these pre-programmed elements ( one Oscar Peterson YouTube clip from my OP touches on this topic). Also, the beauty of modular synths is that you can add randomness or chaos and thus one could create ways for the machine to improvise by itself. Just trying to have fun here
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cpruby
Junior Member
Posts: 73
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Post by cpruby on Mar 20, 2021 17:50:51 GMT
I was actually going to try to come up with a means to collaborate on jazz tunes with AE modular...so this is very timely. I was going to have a clever name like Remote Electronic Jazz: Exploring Collaboration Through Stems (REJ:ECTS!) Firstly I think "jazz" by itself is kind of meaningless. There is so much jazz that its like saying rock or electronic music. The depth and disparity between different styles and artists is huge. The only thing that sets it apart from other musical styles is that it has intentional periods of improvisation. Some jazz is very structured (see big band) and some very loose (see free jazz). One could argue that improvised modular jams are a form of jazz. I'll try to give a brief historical overview since it is how my mind works. Firstly jazz grew out of the blues tradition and ragtime in the late 1800's/early 1900's. The first music identified as jazz is Dixieland jazz that started in the Mississippi delta in the American south - mostly out of New Orleans. I would describe this style as having a lot of polyphony as there are often several monophonic instruments (clarinet, trumpet, trombone) playing lines simultaneously. Drum kits were very rudimentary (it was in development) and harmonic support (if even present) was often only a tenor banjo. This might be a style that can translate well to modular. From there the musicians moved up the Mississippi river to Chicago and this is often associated with the big band and swing era. This is where you get jazz orchestras and more structure. Duke Ellington is probably the most associated artist to this style, but there were many including Count Basie, Cab Calloway, and Buddy Rich. The stereotypic style is a composed piece that has solo sections for improvisation. This style peaked in the 1940's and if you watch Ken Burns: Jazz, they take a rather bleak view that this was the epitome of jazz style. I guess it is correct in that the style as a whole never had the same mainstream impact as it did at that point in time. As big band fell out of favor, musicians/venues realized that paying 30 people a night is expensive. So the groups became smaller and "combos" took over, which is a term for jazz groups that are sized more like a pop or rock band. The scene moved to New York and you start getting virtuosic playing and more complicated improvisation. This lead to bebop where players like Charlie Parker, Dizzy Gillespie, Thelonious Monk, John Coltrane, and Miles Davis play amazingly fast tunes (like Donna Lee). Bebop is known for the rapid harmonic changes, which require the dexterity and musical know-how to improvise within the harmony. From there jazz spreads out in many directions. Miles Davis, almost in a punk rock contrarianism of the frantic pace of bebop, gets cool jazz going and explores modal harmony. Jazz goes electric with fusion (see Return to Forever, Herbie Hancock's Head Hunters, and Weather Report). People abandon form and go for free jazz. Notable parallel developments is in expressing jazz influences through other cultural lenses. Latin jazz (such as Bossa Nova) is a classic example and Antonio Carlos Jobim is one of my favorite composers. In France in the 1940's Romani people had their hands at swing music and created Manouche jazz by guitarist Django Reinhardt. As a bit of trivia, Jamaican musicians in the 1950's tried to imitate the swing music they heard on the radio and invented Ska. Now that the history is out of the way, I'm going to get lunch and come back and post about structure.
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Post by pt3r on Mar 20, 2021 18:29:23 GMT
AE is just another instrument, Jazz is a musical language, once you can speak that language you can speak it through any instrument. Let's be a bit more specific maybe. How would the Jazz language translate to the AE Modular? E.g. we can't easily play chords on a modular synth and often have rather rigid clock patterns. What would be a solution to these limitations? How could we play Jazz without chords and achieve swinging clock triggers? Just two examples.
Your AE should be treated as a melodic instrument in much the same way as a sax or a trumpet work. They don't play chords like a guitar or a keyboard/piano (they can't play the different notes of the chord at the same time), yet they still are a main staple in jazz, right? So I don't see why your AE could not do that. However I don't think it's really practically feasible to program swing on an AE sequencer, it just has not the same resolution like a modern midi sequencer. So you best bet would be to go external sequencer like an mpc/ableton for example. Or, if you want to go full AE you could use your trick you showcased using the env module to create some (randomized) delay on your trigger.
I apologize if I came across as a purist, not the intention at all, I just think that the real magic in jazz happens during the solos, the sheer genius of making up that one solo on the spot is what does it for me.
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Post by NightMachines on Mar 20, 2021 19:22:54 GMT
Alright, so here’s a first attempt to add some “jazzy” elements to an AE Modular jam: The hi-hat/cymbal thing is triggered by mixing a regular MM-DIV clock division with a BEAT DIVIDER clock division. The BEAT DIVIDER is normally for MIDI clock and divides the clock rate by three. When not feeding it a MIDI clock, but a fast LFO, this gives us some swing-like off-beat hits. Still feels a bit static, but that’s also part of the sub-par sound design. I’m using the old ENV modules which have two gate inputs, but which don’t have the snappiest slope. I also threw the old DIVIDER module into the clock division mix, receiving an inverted BEAT DIVIDER clock (inverted by the LOGIC module). This also gives us slightly shifted beats, to mix with regular ones. I did that for the Bass voice, to add some additional in-between notes. By shifting the MM-DIV manually and via CV (switched on/off by the 3VSWITCH) I can change the overall rhythms. The SOLINA is set to 7th chords, but I have a feeling that I’m not hitting Jazz-typical chords and a typical progression. The rhythm is also not very jazzy, but I was running out of clock division signals. Then of course there is the improv bit. A mix of triggers going into a new 2ENV module, with RBSS-modulated decay time and melody. Scaled and offset by a 2CVTOOL. The voice receives CV quantized to a pentatonic scale (same as the Bass sequence) with added slew. Hm. Okay. I think my next try will be less dense and more focussed. For example just on percussion or a note/chord progression. This jam went a bit out of hand
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Post by funbun on Mar 20, 2021 19:29:15 GMT
Who’s your favorite Jazz artist? Like all of them! Miles, Coltrane are and will always be the top Two. But I love Dexter Gordon. Love Sonny Rollins. Love Chet Baker. Count Basie forever! Frank Sinatra, although not a "pure" jazz singer, every jazz musician will tell you that Sintra taught everyone how to sing a melody. Jamie Aebersold because he is the Dieter Doepfer, Bob Moog, Don Buchla of jazz. He has taught everyone how to play jazz since about the 1970s. In fact he runs a jazz camp every summer. What’s your favorite Jazz style?Fusion. Particularly the likes of Weather Report, Joe Zawinul, basically everything that happened in jazz fusion after Miles did Bitches Brew . Favorite band is the YellowJackets. What’s your favorite Jazz album?Right now Miles Davis Sketches of Spain What defines Jazz for you?What defines jazz is simple. Slave music fused with western-art music. Simply put western European art music lost it's ability to improvise. About the only positive thing that came out of the Slave Trade was that west-African music disrupted the entire western-music culture. This produce a music form called the blues. From there blues developed into rhythm-and-blues, country, rock-and-roll, basically everything you hear on the radio today. What defines jazz above all is improvisation. How could one compose Jazz music on our AE Modular synthesizers?What do you think I've been trying to do since I got into modular synths!? In fact my next album is titles The Light | Divine. This is somewhat of a tribute to Coltrane's A Love Supreme.
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Post by funbun on Mar 20, 2021 19:39:23 GMT
Particularly with playing jazz on modular. The #1 most important thing is improvisation. Next to that complex chord changes. Improvisation modular synths can do easily. That's why I've been so adamant about random sources. We finally have the rbss, but we need more random to truly get a deeper level of improvisation. Jaco Pastorius is my favorite bass player. Here's Jaco on Birdland, probably the most popular tune Weather Report ever did: I did a tribute to Jaco on my last album: A Tune For Jaco a.k.a. Bot Trot: blackwarriorlures.bandcamp.com/track/bot-trot-a-tune-for-jacoI'm not trying to play jazz on modular, but I'm trying to fuse Steve Reich, Terry Riley-like minimalism with much of what Miles did on the Sketches of Spain album. Playing modal is easy on modular synths. Improvisation is easy with generative patching. Look at the mini-Moogs that Zawinul was playing in the video above. Those are modular synth because all synths were modular when jazz fusion was developed. But, you gotta hook up a keyboard to it if you wanna do proper chord changes.
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Post by funbun on Mar 20, 2021 20:06:47 GMT
Honestly chord changes in jazz don't have to be complex. That's what Miles' Kind of Blue album was about. Jazz became modal. Well guess what a quantizer does modal very easily. The bigger thing is we need a quantizer that can basically play any scale imaginable. The current quantizer can't play bebop scales, Lydian Dominant scales, diminished scales or any of the scales that jazz musicians play..
More so we don't have the ability for the quantizer to change modes based on the chord changes. For instance if the chord is a Dom-7 chord, the quantizer needs to spit out a myxolidian scale. If it's playing a minor-ii it needs to play a Dorian scale. We're not even talking about #sharp-fives, flat-nines, sharp-11, 'trane changes, tri-tone substitutions. Blues for Alice on modular? You'd need Gargantua, something at least the size of what made the Switched-on Bach album. Remember that album didn't have any improvisation. Jazz musicians don't even have to think about these things.
It's going to take something like a Teensy 4.1 or Raspberry Pi to make something like this happen.
For now, I think going back to the roots of jazz, particularly modal folk music is best. Traditional folk music has strong elements of improvisation. That's world-wide from turkey to Japan. Now I love what these fellows are doing:
Imagine combining the two above. I'd love to hear a drummer, horn player with a modular synth sort of binding it all together. My philosophy is instead of trying to make modular synth play jazz, why not combine these thing to make something the world hasn't seen/heard before?
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Post by funbun on Mar 20, 2021 20:08:38 GMT
Sarah Belle Reid is doing some very cool things with her trumpet and a Buchla Easel.
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Post by funbun on Mar 20, 2021 20:25:44 GMT
After all, programming giant steps in a sequencer does not have any musical accomplishment, after all every one can look up the score in a real book. You being able to play the chord changes and improvising over them, now that's a complete different thing. You know full well that you can't program Giant Steps into an 8 or 16 step sequencer. You can't even get the first five notes in. The first five notes alone would take 11 step on a 16 step sequencer. You'd need like 100 step sequencer at least!
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Post by pt3r on Mar 20, 2021 20:31:43 GMT
After all, programming giant steps in a sequencer does not have any musical accomplishment, after all every one can look up the score in a real book. You being able to play the chord changes and improvising over them, now that's a complete different thing. You know full well that you can't program Giant Steps into an 8 or 16 step sequencer. You can't even get the first five notes in. The first five notes alone would take 11 step on a 16 step sequencer. You'd need like 100 step sequencer at least! I would rather do the required shedding and pull it of myself on the horn or guitar than try to program it on whatever sequencer At the moment I'm struggling with Billie's bounce; I manage to pull of the melody line on guitar (no George Benson speeds mind you) but on my alto it's a completely different story, but I'm nt giving up. I'll get there.
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Post by NightMachines on Mar 20, 2021 20:36:53 GMT
Thanks again for all your wonderful input! Do feel free to share your own jazzy music creations, practice sessions, etc. here too.
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Post by funbun on Mar 20, 2021 20:37:39 GMT
pt3r What do you do when your body is not capable of playing the horn anymore?
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Post by pt3r on Mar 20, 2021 20:41:25 GMT
pt3r What do you do when your body is not capable of playing the horn anymore? I seriously don't know, I guess I'll go full on electronics. I don't dare to think about that. But for the moment I like to believe that daily practice keeps the joints flexible and the sax playing is also a form of breathing ecercises I hope.
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Post by funbun on Mar 20, 2021 20:45:45 GMT
The main thing about modular synth that we all need to remember is that is isn't about adhering to the cultural norms that have produced the music. Modular is all about the sound. We craft, patch and create new sounds that no one has heard before, then create new soundscapes or new music from those sounds.
That's not how jazz works. Jazz has it own culture, norms and etiquette. Look at how quickly some one pointed out the culture of wood shedding and improvising on your own, basically discounting even the thought put putting a jazz tune into a sequencer. That's fine on a cultural level, but that's one reason music dies. Once culture defines the music, it can no longer grow and change because it becomes about fitting into a certain cultural expectation. It dies like Latin.
This is exactly why Don Buchla refused to hook up a keyboard to a modular. Simply attaching that keyboard means you've now attached a 450 year tradition on an instrument that is capable of so much more that what came before. Once you slap on a keyboard, it's no longer about the sound and the music. It becomes about meeting a cultural expectation that may not have anything to do with what you're truly trying to do.
When you show up with a modular synth with wires dropping like a Frankenstein experiment gone wrong, people don't know what to think of it. They hear sound and music they never knew possible, their eyes open, and their minds prime to learn. You just bypassed any expectation, jadedness that came in the door.
Plop a keyboard onto the synth, and all that goes away. They'll expect you to adhear to everything they have predefined in their own heads. If you mention that you're trying to play jazz on a modular synth, you're expected to meet all the cultural norms that have defined jazz culture. That's the sad, pathetic truth of modern society. Most musicians don't listen to sound. They only analyse and replicate pre-existing forms and structures. The thought of doing something new mostly never crosses their minds, or it's so offensive that they would condemn anyone to prison for even mentioning anything new.
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