XODES
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Post by XODES on Feb 19, 2021 15:21:33 GMT
From the very beginning, even before those Corona times, I decided my products would be produced/assembled locally, as much as possible, or at least in France. And that was totally feasible for my Eurorack products so far.
Of course some of the materials I have to use are not even produced in Europe, as we decided long time ago already we'd send production for a lot of things in Asia, yet most of the added-value tasks for now happened at maximum 50Km from me I guess.
Even though I met people willing to help, and understanding the expectations of the musical instruments market which is way smaller that what they're used to, producing locally has a cost. I started getting quotes from local CMs, and an assembled module that would be a quad version of the randomizer showcased recently would have to sell above 45 Euros excl. VAT!
I know some people often expect smaller things to be cheaper, which is very untrue, as in the end there's the same amount of work and components to be assembled in a "standard" and "miniaturized" version of... whatever it is (and even though this isn't always true, making things smaller will sometimes require more work at the development stage).
An alternative would be to assemble boards in-house, as I have access to a reflow oven. It never was my initial plan as I have a lot of other things to do, yet it could be OK only for boards with low parts count for now as I don't have a pick-n-place machine (yet).
This should lower the price by at least ~10 Euros, yet it still means a logic module in 1/3 format made in France would be around twice the price of a standard one.
I already abandoned some projects in the past because of this kind of issue, and even though it can be somewhat frustrating, I'm OK with that.
I'm now waiting for quotes for assembly within Europe, supposedly at a lower cost, yet the last time I was promised this kind of "lower prices" thing, I was more than disappointed. Still, I wouldn't be fully satisfied with this solution I guess, as I like being able to easily go visit the people I work with.
A totally different approach would be to (re) design some things to make these DIY friendly, with THT components only, which is far from being the case right now, and make these available as kits, or assembled. The format wouldn't allow doing things that would require a lot of electronics on board though, and it would be hard to stack PCBs.
So... to the people interested in those 1/3 modules, what would be your expectations? |
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Post by laenan on Feb 19, 2021 15:48:17 GMT
Hey! I do not count myself as s.o. who is interested in the modules, as I do not even own a system atm. But I would like to give you my opinon never the less, as I thought about this idea already the first time I heard about. So feel free to ignore everything. ;-)
First I loved the idea and admire your skill in designing such a PCB/module. It is one of my goals to produce a PCB on my own at some point.
I guess assembling some 10s of units by yourself is not really fun after the first three units (I might me wrong) so I would go for a service for assembly, even if it's 10EUR extra.
The real thing I tought about was: Even that it would sacrifice flexibility, would it be possible to design a 1/1 unit, hosting 3 subunits? That would free space in the rack but benefits from less overhead costs (I guess parts are cheap, only the pick&place setup is expensive etc.).
But I'm a n00b with Modular, so maybe I'm just wrong... :-D
Cheers, Laenan
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Post by solipsistnation on Feb 19, 2021 16:30:43 GMT
Off the top of my head, I would expect the 1/3 backplane to be around US$10, and each module to be $15-20 depending on functionality. Over $50 for a 1/3-size module would be way too expensive unless it was something complex-- that's as much as a pretty functional full-sized module.
Through-hole components and building them myself would be fun, but the AE module format is already pretty tiny and 1/3 modules would have to be really dense-- I think it would be too limiting, too. You'd have room for one IC and a couple of other components, maybe.
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XODES
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Post by XODES on Feb 19, 2021 16:37:41 GMT
Hey! I do not count myself as s.o. who is interested in the modules, as I do not even own a system atm. But I would like to give you my opinon never the less, as I thought about this idea already the first time I heard about. So feel free to ignore everything. ;-)
I guess assembling some 10s of units by yourself is not really fun after the first three units (I might me wrong) so I would go for a service for assembly, even if it's 10EUR extra.
The real thing I tought about was: Even that it would sacrifice flexibility, would it be possible to design a 1/1 unit, hosting 3 subunits? That would free space in the rack but benefits from less overhead costs (I guess parts are cheap, only the pick&place setup is expensive etc.).
But I'm a n00b with Modular, so maybe I'm just wrong... :-D
Cheers, Laenan
There are times when assembling things by hand might somehow "free your mind", and give more or less next to instant satisfaction, seeing something being built. It often is not the best way to spend my time though, economically speaking.
If I go the DIY route, I wouldn't expect needing to assemble a lot of units (if things proved I was wrong, I wouldn't do it for long).
If I go with the boards as designed right now, it would "only" be about applying solder paste and placing the SMT components by hand, as the oven would be used for the reflow. In that case, making 10s at once is not that painful with a low-parts BOM.
The parts and PCBs indeed are only a tiny fraction of the production cost. What you pay for mostly is time humans and robots spend collaborating to assemble the boards.
Even though it would be cheaper than 3 x 1/3 units, I'm not sure it would make much sense to propose "1 HP triple modules" as you'd lose the flexibility to place the functions where you need these to be in the rack, and I guess there would only be a very limited number of such modules one would want in triple at the exact same place.
I'm OK to be wrong though  |
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XODES
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Post by XODES on Feb 19, 2021 16:49:06 GMT
Off the top of my head, I would expect the 1/3 backplane to be around US$10, and each module to be $15-20 depending on functionality. Over $50 for a 1/3-size module would be way too expensive unless it was something complex-- that's as much as a pretty functional full-sized module. Through-hole components and building them myself would be fun, but the AE module format is already pretty tiny and 1/3 modules would have to be really dense-- I think it would be too limiting, too. You'd have room for one IC and a couple of other components, maybe.
I'd need to make thousands of units to go for prices this low while producing locally. If this is the kind of price everybody expect, I might simply never release these.
DIY versions would indeed be limited to this kind of "single chip and couple of passives" modules. One could simply hack something out of the 1/3 proto boards I made, which would be perfect for e.g. single logic chip designs.
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Post by tIB on Feb 19, 2021 16:59:19 GMT
For small run stuff like this in house is probably best bet, especially since you want to do it locally. If DIY is an option and assembly is the biggest outlay what about a middle way: sell as a kit with pre populated PCBs and leave the final assembly to the user. Perhaps that would shave some off the price and then charge more for complete modules?
Price wise to me a module is a module regardless of size, so I didn't look at these and think of an upper price limit. I'm really interested in the format, think it's a great idea andwould support for the stuff that would suit. (the quad randomiser probably isn't too of !y list for things I need though I may pick one up depending on the other options)
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Post by tIB on Feb 19, 2021 17:02:22 GMT
Off the top of my head, I would expect the 1/3 backplane to be around US$10, and each module to be $15-20 depending on functionality. Over $50 for a 1/3-size module would be way too expensive unless it was something complex-- that's as much as a pretty functional full-sized module. Through-hole components and building them myself would be fun, but the AE module format is already pretty tiny and 1/3 modules would have to be really dense-- I think it would be too limiting, too. You'd have room for one IC and a couple of other components, maybe.
I'd need to make thousands of units to go for prices this low while producing locally. If this is the kind of price everybody expect, I might simply never release these.
DIY versions would indeed be limited to this kind of "single chip and couple of passives" modules. One could simply hack something out of the 1/3 proto boards I made, which would be perfect for e.g. single logic chip designs.
15-20 dollars per module doesn't seem at all realistic. |
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XODES
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Post by XODES on Feb 19, 2021 17:29:26 GMT
For small run stuff like this in house is probably best bet, especially since you want to do it locally. If DIY is an option and assembly is the biggest outlay what about a middle way: sell as a kit with pre populated PCBs and leave the final assembly to the user. Perhaps that would shave some off the price and then charge more for complete modules? Price wise to me a module is a module regardless of size, so I didn't look at these and think of an upper price limit. I'm really interested in the format, think it's a great idea andwould support for the stuff that would suit. (the quad randomiser probably isn't too of !y list for things I need though I may pick one up depending on the other options) The "middle way" wouldn't significantly save on cost actually. I've been considering it at some point for Eurorack modules, and it appeared that what you save on assembly, you end up spending on extra packaging material and time to do it.
In these 1/3 modules case, there are only 4 THT connectors to assemble, so it's not a big deal.
I changed the randomizer from triple to quadruple so that I could possibly reuse this PCB and propose other type of logic/digital kind of modules, so there would be other options.
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Post by tIB on Feb 19, 2021 17:54:44 GMT
For small run stuff like this in house is probably best bet, especially since you want to do it locally. If DIY is an option and assembly is the biggest outlay what about a middle way: sell as a kit with pre populated PCBs and leave the final assembly to the user. Perhaps that would shave some off the price and then charge more for complete modules? Price wise to me a module is a module regardless of size, so I didn't look at these and think of an upper price limit. I'm really interested in the format, think it's a great idea andwould support for the stuff that would suit. (the quad randomiser probably isn't too of !y list for things I need though I may pick one up depending on the other options) The "middle way" wouldn't significantly save on cost actually. I've been considering it at some point for Eurorack modules, and it appeared that what you save on assembly, you end up spending on extra packaging material and time to do it.
In these 1/3 modules case, there are only 4 THT connectors to assemble, so it's not a big deal.
I changed the randomizer from triple to quadruple so that I could possibly reuse this PCB and propose other type of logic/digital kind of modules, so there would be other options.
Ah, so it seems in terms of price are you looking at 35 - 45 euros per modul? Or less depending on how much you do in house? If the module choice suits my needs I wouldn't have a problem paying that. I'd also be interested in PCB and faceplate only if that were the only option, regardless of whether surface mount or through hole (through hole seems like it could get limiting quickly?) - basically I'd love to see this happen! |
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XODES
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Post by XODES on Feb 19, 2021 18:42:53 GMT
Ah, so it seems in terms of price are you looking at 35 - 45 euros per modul? Or less depending on how much you do in house? If the module choice suits my needs I wouldn't have a problem paying that. I'd also be interested in PCB and faceplate only if that were the only option, regardless of whether surface mount or through hole (through hole seems like it could get limiting quickly?) - basically I'd love to see this happen!
I wouldn't say I'm doing things based on a target price : I knew I had to adapt to be close to the prices for the existing modules and I did know producing locally would have an impact, so there are changes I made already, yet it looks like there's a minimum under which things are not possible in these conditions, when doing it as a company.
I always try to look at things from a customer point of view, and try to take into account what already is on the market... and this is way easier for Eurorack right now
Even though I'd understand possible low volumes and efforts in doing things locally have a cost, basically as a customer, I wouldn't pay 45 Euro + VAT for a 1/3 format digital module. I feel 30 would be fine, 35 would be the max I'd be willing to spend... yet this is not something I can blindly decide on my own based on my "possible customer side", as I mostly need to do things that make sense to keep the company sustainable.
A couple of through hole projects are feasible actually. Basically, pretty much anything based on a single logic IC, that would only need additional resistors on inputs/outputs, and a decoupling cap.
I was thinking about maybe making white panels for the 1/3 proto board so that DIYers could easily add simple things to their system and customize the front panels with a simple marker. It could be simple things like frequency dividers, flip-flops, quad gates and such.
I could also go for a series of such DIY only modules based on these simple functions, and that would come with a dedicated front panel similar to the ones presented earlier. These would surely be PCB/FP + possibly connectors only, as the other parts would be pretty standard.
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Post by solipsistnation on Feb 19, 2021 19:34:13 GMT
I'd need to make thousands of units to go for prices this low while producing locally. If this is the kind of price everybody expect, I might simply never release these.
DIY versions would indeed be limited to this kind of "single chip and couple of passives" modules. One could simply hack something out of the 1/3 proto boards I made, which would be perfect for e.g. single logic chip designs.
15-20 dollars per module doesn't seem at all realistic.
Right, what I'm saying is that for a tiny module with a couple of functions, $40+ is also not really realistic from the customer side... That's getting into actual Eurorack territory. $40 for a logic chip and some sockets seems like a lot. The AE Logic module is 19 euros-- more than double that price doesn't seem like a good value, although I do appreciate the space savings.
I totally may not be your typical customer, though. It's probably worth seeing what other people say. 8)
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Post by tIB on Feb 19, 2021 20:13:28 GMT
15-20 dollars per module doesn't seem at all realistic.
Right, what I'm saying is that for a tiny module with a couple of functions, $40+ is also not really realistic from the customer side... That's getting into actual Eurorack territory. $40 for a logic chip and some sockets seems like a lot. The AE Logic module is 19 euros-- more than double that price doesn't seem like a good value, although I do appreciate the space savings.
I totally may not be your typical customer, though. It's probably worth seeing what other people say. 8)
The difficulty is Roberts prices are so good it's hard to match that and make a bit on the side as a small scale manufacturer. I don't see it quite the same as you, but space is at a premium to me as I'm limiting myself in terms of size. Space isn't really costly in AE format so there's that, but I'm up for paying more for similar/new functionality in a smaller footprint... because I'm greedy (within the limitations ive set)! |
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Post by keurslagerkurt on Feb 19, 2021 22:06:40 GMT
I very much appreciate your honesty and how open you are about the about the price tag. It is indeed a hard question. Like has been mentioned before, Roberts prices are about impossible to beat, but for me that doesn't matter that much. I'm happy to pay an extra tag for 3rd party products that bring new ideas and vibes to the place. I also admire your 'keep it local' mindset, and think it is good to have both Roberts low budget stuff (makes it so accessible!), but also the opportunity to support local business with a bit more specific/pricey/.. modules. I have been thinking about the price tag you mentioned, and its a bit on the 'borderline' indeed. I was thinking that for three functional, cool modules in 1U space, I would in fact be ready to pay something like 150 euros, but I'm afraid your price might be higher including VAT etc in the end. Maybe something between 150 and 200 might still be okay for me, considering it are really modules i want (not just 'bread and butter'), which eg the random gate module seems to be, it is something 'new'. I would never pay this much for big corporation, big money factory stuff, but as I see it supports someone with a vision and with so many cool ideas, I would be happy to pay the extra price. I'm very much speaking out of my own consumer perspective, and I know I'm in a very priviliged position that I can say this. Anyway, I think its great business practice how you are reflecting on all this, can I buy your stocks somewhere?  |
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Post by funbun on Feb 19, 2021 22:14:42 GMT
This is a most fascinating discussion. For me size was never the matter. It was cost. I first wanted a Moog, but I didn't have 10 grand to spend on a synth.
Another cost for me was time. I had considered building a Eurorack, but I simply did not have the time. Honestly, if I knew the 2020 pandemic was coming, I would have taken the year to build a Serge modular.
I see the two perspectives: the customer's and the business owner's. One of my concerns for AE Modular is that the prices are already so inexpensive that while we benefit as the end users, I worry that there isn't much margin for people like XO wanting to get into manufacturing for this format.
For instance consider the Dove Audio WAVETABLES for AE. That costs $105 USD from Noisebug. I understand that it is a highly functional oscillator. (That's why I bought two!) It's a great deal considering the Eurorack or Moog version would cost upwards of $425. However, Erica Synths has a wavetable oscillator in their 3 hp Picco line that sells for, what $120?
That's an unfair comparison, admittedly. Paula's WAVETABLES has seven tables. Erica Synth only has two. What you're getting for the price in AE is great! If Erica Synths ever wanted to port the Picco to AE, it would probably cost the same as WAVETABLES.
I know that doesn't answer the question. But I think it's something that other commercial module makers will have to consider with building for the AE Modular format.
Honestly I think other makers will be better off taking their high cost modules and making a more affordable version for AE. That's exactly what Paula did with WAVETABLES and the upcoming WTF.
For me would I buy the 1/3 system at the greater cost? Honestly, no. It simply isn't my use case. I'm seriously considering building a Serge control panel with smooth/stepped slope generator, +/- slew, DUSG and other CV control classics like the Triple Comparator and such. In other words I'm going the other direction.
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Post by tIB on Feb 19, 2021 22:42:39 GMT
^ Interesting stuff funbun. I think with AE as a format I see it as very much Robert's thing and I got into it for that reason; I like single manufacturer formats. That said I welcome options like this, the wonkystuff stuff and the handful of others who look to be developing within the format, as well as the official colabs like dove audio. It's a great little format this and we are very lucky to get what we do for the entrance fee.
I think developing modules for the AE system, outside of official colabs, would have to be something of a labour of love - while developers should rightly make on their endeavors, I don't think anyone will be getting rich in this little corner of the synth universe... though I can't see that putting too many off.
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XODES
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Post by XODES on Feb 19, 2021 23:24:51 GMT
I very much appreciate your honesty and how open you are about the about the price tag. It is indeed a hard question. Like has been mentioned before, Roberts prices are about impossible to beat, but for me that doesn't matter that much. I'm happy to pay an extra tag for 3rd party products that bring new ideas and vibes to the place. I also admire your 'keep it local' mindset, and think it is good to have both Roberts low budget stuff (makes it so accessible!), but also the opportunity to support local business with a bit more specific/pricey/.. modules. I have been thinking about the price tag you mentioned, and its a bit on the 'borderline' indeed. I was thinking that for three functional, cool modules in 1U space, I would in fact be ready to pay something like 150 euros, but I'm afraid your price might be higher including VAT etc in the end. Maybe something between 150 and 200 might still be okay for me, considering it are really modules i want (not just 'bread and butter'), which eg the random gate module seems to be, it is something 'new'. I would never pay this much for big corporation, big money factory stuff, but as I see it supports someone with a vision and with so many cool ideas, I would be happy to pay the extra price. I'm very much speaking out of my own consumer perspective, and I know I'm in a very priviliged position that I can say this. Anyway, I think its great business practice how you are reflecting on all this, can I buy your stocks somewhere?
Thanks, there indeed is something to do with my very personal vision, whether on products, or about how a company can have an impact from a social and environmental point of view.
I know this might not be common as some "business owners" might only be driven by profit, or whatever financial related vocabulary that would fit.
Going local can be far from being easy when you find out that little by little, there are some basic things we don't know how to do anymore in close vicinity. It looks like some people realized that with the situation we've been living for a year now though.
My business is not only about making synth related stuff. Part of it also is about electronics engineering services. I'm glad when I have "local" customers or partners that could have gone with remote workers on the other side of the globe instead for a fraction of the price. But they too made a choice to "go local" at some point, because as I see it, all of this is not only technical, in the end, and the social part still has some weight/value, for some people at least.
So, I knew I would somehow face this pricing difference issue at some point, and based on the numbers I had so far, I'd say I may have underestimated it. It's not about judging other methods, there's no good or bad way, it's only about my very own vision, and the methods I want to apply to keep on being satisfied with what I'm doing as a day, night, and week-end job.
No sane person would launch production for modules in AE format as those described with prices in the range I quoted in my first message, and as I said, as a customer even I wouldn't buy these at this price, which simply is not in phase with the original philosophy of the system.
I surely will have to make some changes, and may start with simple DIY products only maybe, so I would only provide PCBs and panels, until I find a satisfying, reasonable solution.
I'm glad to own 100% of the company as of now, and there might not be any amount of money I could imagine that would ever change that. |
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Post by admin on Feb 19, 2021 23:30:19 GMT
Fantastic discussion and I just want to chime in here with my perspective regarding TW pricing compared to what "smaller" manufacturers have to price their modules at to make a buck.
Not so long ago, only about 2 years actually, Robert was a "small" boutique manufacturer himself. He did everything by himself, design, prototyping, cutting and printing faceplates and also hand soldering the control components onto modules. Only the PCB's where always produced in China.
The reason why Robert was able to sell all his modules so cheaply, even though he was a sole operator and even did most of this in his spare time while working a day job, was that the AE Modular WAS BY DESIGN AFFORDABLE! Robert's whole reason for making this format was not to make yet another cool oscillator, or another cool module for this or that function.
AE Modular is ".. a real Modular Synth Affordable for Everyone!"
This has always been the driving philosophy for the AE Modular system. Modules were hand soldered in his workshop, faceplates were cut and printed in house, not because Robert felt a need to have things produced locally, but because it was more affordable for him to do so at time. Now that the order volumes have increased dramatically, the equation has been changed. It is becoming less and less affordable to produce things in house and therefore more and more work is shifted to suppliers elsewhere while still maintaining the affordable prices, which haven't changed for over 3 years.
XO's philosophy seems to be different and I totally respect that. Having all electronic manufacturing outsourced to China is indeed problematic, especially with the current aggressive posturing of the communist party. Fostering a local manufacturing eco system is an absolutely worthwhile cause. But it does indeed come at a price.
So you could argue that if you pay a higher price for an XO module you are actually supporting small local manufacturing businesses (not just XO, but also the local PCB makers that XO contracts) and you are doing your part to limit the dependency on Asian manufacturers in the synth community. It almost becomes a political act to pay more or less for a module (this could spawn a whole different discussion thread!)
I think both TW's and XO's approaches to manufacturing and pricing have merit and I would love to see both continue to thrive and prosper and surprise us with beautiful little sound machines to transport us to new and exciting inner worlds.
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Post by funbun on Feb 20, 2021 0:12:59 GMT
I'm glad to own 100% of the company as of now, and there might not be any amount of money I could imagine that would ever change that. That's how I feel about my little fishing tackle business. Making things by hand takes a long time. I had to really trim down the number of product I offered. I had no intention of staying at home churning out fishing tackles one at a time by hand. My time is best spent on the water, with the camera or editing footage. As a result I'm looking at either getting 3D printing companies to produce 3D printed versions of my best selling fishing tackle. But even that carries costs because you have to have people design and man the machines that print. For me personally I'm making the shift toward teaching online classes. Teaching people to make fishing tackle themselves. That way I can make the product one time and be done with it. Also offering my music created right here on AE Modular licensed via Creative Commons so that others can have good music to use in their fishing videos. When I first started my fishing channel, I bought a Thailand longtail outboard. The kind of outboard engine you've seen everywhere in southeast Asia. The US importer could offer a 6.5 hp engine for something like $500 USD. About a 1/3 of the price of a traditional outboard, but far more capable. After making a bunch of videos of my experiences with that little engine, lots of people would come to me for advice, proceed to buy a new engine, then come back to tell me about it. It was kind of funny, really. I approached the importer about an affiliate deal where I could earn a commission for every unit purchased via my link or whatever. Well, he had his reasons. Namely he did not want to "pay" customers. He felt that a testimony is more genuine when money isn't changing hands behind the scenes. I respected that. Part of it was keeping the price low. If you're now having to pay every YouTuber who recommended you engine and buy via their link, you've just added a nightmare of paperwork to keep track of all that. Plus you'd have to raise prices to compensate for the new payout plan. Again in my fishing tackle situation, part of the reason I can keep prices low is because I live in the southeast USA. The cost of living is very low down here. Whew! That's long winded. I say all that because any "small, boutique" shop deals with those same sorts of things no matter what industry: fishing tackle, engines or modular synths. |
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Post by MaxRichardson97 on Feb 20, 2021 0:42:52 GMT
Personally speaking - I'm drawn to AE primarily because of the price and accessibility. I LOVE the idea of the 1/3 format, and would definitely try to pick up some micro modules if I could afford them - but unfortunately I feel Brexit could quite likely impact my decision to buy.
I really love the affordable approach of AE, which is my main draw to the system. I've wanted to look into modular for about five years or so now, but always thought it was completely off limits for my budget, especially as I'd really want a large system to explore different sounds and such. Lo-and-behold, last year in the middle of Covid craziness I stumbled across affordable modular synthesis from an Instagram comment someone left under the Teenage Engineering modular stuff, and haven't looked back. My main draw is price, but I also love being able to support small businesses like Tangible Waves and WonkyStuff, especially when modules like the RBSS are priced so reasonably. Considering Brexit, 50~ euros for a module, of which I'd need to buy 3, is steep for me - but I do absolutely love the format and completely understand why the price is necessary!
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Post by moruial on Feb 20, 2021 10:29:40 GMT
I think most of us here were attracted to the price of the AE modular. as stated by Carsten, it's modular for everyone.
I would have love to go for Moog size but the price was way out of my range.
Even if the AE format was not that much appealing visually for me at the start, I was definitely seduce by the price and I start loving these grey panels.
Size isn't a problem form me at all, I would gladly have a wall made out of modular. only price is.
The "problem" I can see with the 1/3 format is that we "have" to get 3 modules to save space. because if we get just one, we don't save space at all in our rack.
May it be 3 of the same module or all different, below 2 it's pointless, unless there are new modules, like the RBSS or the Matrix mixer.
As much as I'd like to support new manufacturers and new modules, and format, I wouldn't go for more that 30€/modules in the 1/3 size. unless they are new unseen modules and can add new opportunities to my creativity and patching.
On the other hand, I perfectly understand it is hard to have good price on what you are producing, I used to be a blacksmith/knifemaker, I understand the struggle 😉
In the meantime, I still do hope you can figure out something because the 1/3 format look very nice and can be a nice addition to the AEM, or even other third party modules!
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Post by NightMachines on Feb 20, 2021 11:52:48 GMT
Even though it would be cheaper than 3 x 1/3 units, I'm not sure it would make much sense to propose "1 HP triple modules" as you'd lose the flexibility to place the functions where you need these to be in the rack Personally, I don’t mind triple modules at all. After ten years spent with modular synths of most formats, I have never had a “perfect” module layout in a case. The key to happiness for me were the right cable lengths and case widths/sizes to get all modules and features together in a patch. Especially modules that don’t have human interfaces, like knobs and buttons, can sit wherever in the rack in my opinion. So a triple logic module would be good patch-and-forget module. Having all of the logics in one space could maybe even be helpful, because you don’t have to search for the three single 1/3 logic modules placed all over the case. Generally, I (and most people apparently) like more stuff in less space, as long as it doesn’t interfere with usability, so it might even not matter in the end if your modules are 1/3 or 1U, as long as they offer a nice feature density and a good price. |
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Post by danbowen on Feb 20, 2021 23:20:22 GMT
The beauty of AE is the price, the size and the utilitarian looks( is Robert from the GDR?) I would definitely be into DIY kits if there was no surface mounted stuff. Having recently modified my RBSS it doesn't seem so scary any more.
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Post by Gaëtan on Feb 21, 2021 6:43:28 GMT
For those of you who speak French, there's this super interesting video about the cost of effects pedals and what it takes to manufacture electronics locally :
I have been recently following the philosophy that I prefer to buy from local manufacturers as much as possible, even when it means it's more expensive (not restricted to music). I feel that it is a more responsible choice both socially and environmentally, as well as leaving me generally more satisfied with what I have and not seeing things as disposable crap. I'm not the only one and I know that point of view is spreading.
I think there totally is room for more expensive AE modules, but I can also see that it's not easy. What is worth having in 1/3 format is a great question, in Eurorack the 1U modules seem to be mostly some straightforward utilities. Maybe some very cheap modules could be made alongside the more expensive ones, such as buffered mults, (passive ?) LPGs, attenuverters, etc. Like that it would help "swallow the pill".
It would also be interesting to see if there will be cases with 1/3 rows, because that would explode the usefulness of that format.
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XODES
New Member
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Post by XODES on Feb 21, 2021 10:46:25 GMT
For those of you who speak French, there's this super interesting video about the cost of effects pedals and what it takes to manufacture electronics locally :
I have been recently following the philosophy that I prefer to buy from local manufacturers as much as possible, even when it means it's more expensive (not restricted to music). I feel that it is a more responsible choice both socially and environmentally, as well as leaving me generally more satisfied with what I have and not seeing things as disposable crap. I'm not the only one and I know that point of view is spreading.
I think there totally is room for more expensive AE modules, but I can also see that it's not easy. What is worth having in 1/3 format is a great question, in Eurorack the 1U modules seem to be mostly some straightforward utilities. Maybe some very cheap modules could be made alongside the more expensive ones, such as buffered mults, (passive ?) LPGs, attenuverters, etc. Like that it would help "swallow the pill".
It would also be interesting to see if there will be cases with 1/3 rows, because that would explode the usefulness of that format.
Interesting video. There was a similar one a couple years ago from Mutable Instruments on this pricing topic.
I understand some people still would think about the quantity of stuff they could buy for a certain amount of money, and would simply not worry about how it was made etc. I personally would now rather get less stuff that I would actually use instead of filling blank spaces just because things I'd put in there were cheap.
Gaëtan The following is not related to your comment, and more about things said earlier/elsewhere :
I'm still surprised some people compare AE prices with Eurorack ones : what makes the AE format affordable is linked to some design choices for the system that could be considered as restrictions/constraints. As the system runs on a single voltage, and unless you end up using something like a MCU that would absolutely need to run on 3.3V only there's no need to adapt levels, use extra protections etc, which means most "mainly digital" Euro modules adapted in AE format would have a simpler BOM.
Another good example, that has a MAJOR impact on Euro modules prices is the number of THT connectors. With the standard 8 pins headers in AE format, you could use up to 16 jacks on a Euro module. So an AE one would mean assembling only 2 components and soldering 16 pads, while the same module in Euro format would be about assembling 16 components and soldering up to 64 pads depending on the sockets used.
If these are to be soldered by hand, assemblers usually apply a price per component to fit on board, plus a price per pad to be soldered.
So if tomorrow someone were to make a synth system assembled in Asia that uses no connectors at all and simply connect TH pads on a PCB via double ended crocodile clips, some could eventually see the AE format as overpriced.
Being satisfied with what I do, and about the way I do it is more important to me than releasing any product, so I'll simply say I don't feel the NEED to make these if it has to be done in an unsatisfactory way.
It's a thing when people find an idea being "cool" yet that doesn't mean these very same people will be ready to adopt it and buy a product, and I didn't find a way to pay bills with "likes" yet. This is a lesson I learned the hard way several times already in my career for the past 20 years.
If my goal was to make a salary out of 20 Euro modules made in Asia, while being able to make my company still sustainable once all the taxes etc are paid I'd probably need to sell like 700 units a month. If the very same modules are to be made in France and are still to be sold for 20 Euros, I might need to sell more than 2000 units a month, which in both cases might never happen.
I've been basically working about 80hrs a week with no salary for more than a year already, so I could invest in new products development instead, and I guess most people wouldn't accept that from their main job.
Maybe I should consider moving to China, so I can go local at "affordable" prices.
Now people know it's doable, anybody wants to see this 1/3 format happen is free to do it, and if I ever find a solution that's not in contradiction with my beliefs, I'll do it.
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Post by admin on Feb 21, 2021 21:43:05 GMT
Hello XODES, You stick to your principles and that is admirable! However it might be a hard sell to a crowd that mainly came to AE Modular because of the relatively low price compared to Eurorack. If you browse through forum.aemodular.com/thread/7/share-ae-modular-story then you will read this one common theme .. "I wanted to get into modular, but can't afford the prices of Eurorack, then I found AE Modular ...". Maybe now after 3 years there are a few people here that have a bit more money to spend and would happily pay a higher price to support your work and principles, but the majority will likely baulk at paying over $25 for a 1/3 logic module. One way to find out, what "the market" will and can bear is to start a Kickstarter campaign. After all, this is how AE Modular came into existence! You could set the prices to a level that you feel comfortable with even if those would be higher than usual AE modules. You could gauge very quickly how many people would be willing to support you and you could grow the business from there. Or you will get a definitive answer that you're in the wrong market, or in this market at the wrong time. AE Modular is still young and things may change over the next few years. I would be very happy to help you promote the kickstarter on all channels where AE modular is discussed and you can definitely count me in as a paying supporter! |
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