XODES
New Member
Posts: 39
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Post by XODES on Feb 22, 2021 10:50:04 GMT
Hello XODES , You stick to your principles and that is admirable! However it might be a hard sell to a crowd that mainly came to AE Modular because of the relatively low price compared to Eurorack. If you browse through forum.aemodular.com/thread/7/share-ae-modular-story then you will read this one common theme .. "I wanted to get into modular, but can't afford the prices of Eurorack, then I found AE Modular ...". Maybe now after 3 years there are a few people here that have a bit more money to spend and would happily pay a higher price to support your work and principles, but the majority will likely baulk at paying over $25 for a 1/3 logic module. One way to find out, what "the market" will and can bear is to start a Kickstarter campaign. After all, this is how AE Modular came into existence! You could set the prices to a level that you feel comfortable with even if those would be higher than usual AE modules. You could gauge very quickly how many people would be willing to support you and you could grow the business from there. Or you will get a definitive answer that you're in the wrong market, or in this market at the wrong time. AE Modular is still young and things may change over the next few years. I would be very happy to help you promote the kickstarter on all channels where AE modular is discussed and you can definitely count me in as a paying supporter!
Some people see crowdfunding campaigns as a gamble, which is understandable due to how things happened in the beginning of Kickstarter and the likes. Over the past years, they straightened the rules to submit technology related products though, and you now have to prove you have a working prototype (almost) ready for production, which is a good thing so that they could filter unrealistic, science-fiction type of projects.
It looks like they also increased their fees, which at some point someone has to pay, and could somewhat have an impact on the final amount of the pledges.
What most people do not realize is the fact that this might be a bigger gamble from the creator point of view : one can invest a lot of time and money on a product development and campaign, to only see it fail.
I do have a couple projects for which a crowdfunding campaign would make sense, as the final price would fit the market, and the only goal would be to get funds to launch production.
This case looks different, and a crowdfunding campaign wouldn't make any sense to me :
- First to be effective, it would require me to develop way more products beforehand so that people would possibly gain interest and feel they have choices, and not make it look like a one-off thing, but more a mid/long term one.
- Then these products should be priced lower than what can be achieved while producing locally, and it looks clear to me that I don't need to spend any time on thinking about an hypothetical crowdfunding campaign to understand most people are not willing to pay for my possible overpriced products.
I have mixed feelings about licensing these, as an alternative, as I don't quite want my name/brand to be associated with products manufactured in Asia (again, only based on my very personal visions/choices, anybody is free not to share these).
I guess if I stick to this 1/3 format, I might limit it to a limited number of simple DIY only products instead when I find both time and interest/motivation in doing these, which might not happen before a couple of weeks now as I'll be starting back working on an external project while supervising production for a couple other things.
Builders would surely realize then that if they take into account the time they take to source components, shipping charges, and time to build a single unit by hand, they might only save a couple Euros.
It looks it would be easier to go with more complex, full sized modules, for which users could somewhat understand a justified, reasonable price increase.
Time always have a value, even when doing things by/for yourself.
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Post by MaxRichardson97 on Feb 22, 2021 11:14:19 GMT
Completely understand your situation, it's really admirable how much your principles mean to you! It's great to see that. I think complex modules might be a cool idea, it sort of seems the next logical step in the AE system! We've just seen the launch of the Drone module, and the Mixconsole - so it definitely seems that more complex ideas are what lies on the horizon. I'd definitely be really interested to see what you come up with! Personally, I think I'd be much happier paying more for complex modules than utilities, as you say. I don't have a single, set in stone price limit, but I guess around £100 is where I'd draw my line. Of course, this all depends on functionality and such, but I'd be happy to pay around that mark for the right module that really offered something interesting and new! Really looking forward to seeing what you come up with! New creations are always a good thing!  |
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Post by spacedog on Feb 22, 2021 11:57:34 GMT
From a very personal point of view (after all, which other view can I have), this points to a value versus price discussion, where function and desirability are two (of many) components of value. A high perception of value will allow a price tag to follow, although something can still be of high value and be free. Some items create such a strong pull, usually in terms of desirability, that the price follows this, even into the used market. For the AE Modular, I believe that the value appreciation needs to overcome a perception by some that we're dealing with a cheap Eurorack, and anything that can exist within Eurorack can be made to exist with the AE Modular format. I see this in a lot of the new module requests and I've posted about this perception before. The AE Modular format can't recreate everything available in other formats, and even if it can, I believe that some of it will be way more than those who ask for it will be willing to pay. Admittedly, I've always preferred "value-for-money" as one of the adjectives for the AE Modular, rather than "cheap", mainly because of where that leads in terms of value again. Of course, when some of the production values change, and we start to deal with start-up costs, we can't expect the manufacturer to work at the same price point as Robert, who has production costs likely at lower points and an order book to keep him going. Also, I believe there's a blindness to value being introduced by the format. Why does it matter if a unit is 1/3 size...? Or 2/3 size...? Or even full-size...? Well, as I see it, you're getting functionality-value, combined with size-value. In my opinion, we shouldn't expect the price to be less than that of a TW module just because it's smaller in format. In fact, I would consider that the aggregation of different "values", and the need to cover start-up and higher production costs, would make it obvious that the price paid must be higher. This becomes a no-brainier when you view the ethical considerations being factored in, which does add definite value again for some who look for this in what they buy. I've said before that I believe the success of the AE Modular format is both measured by, and increased by the presence of third party developers. Taking an altruistic view, there's a real value in that overall increased success as we can all share in the benefits. Whilst I can understand that we all have different amounts of money to spend on these things, particularly in these uncertain times, for me it's about the value of the product. To come full circle, that value is to me personally, to the success of the format, and to a wider ethical stance. When I view it that way, the price starts to be something that I will choose to afford, based on how the value stacks up. Perhaps we could start to use "value for buck", instead of "bang for buck", or just remember that "bang" is just another word for "value" Right, coffee... as always, I've bored myself now. |
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Post by keurslagerkurt on Feb 22, 2021 15:55:13 GMT
I think Spacedog hammered it pretty much home for me, I second all of it! Interested in where you'll be taking all of this XODES , seems like interesting third party times are ahead which is fantastic for us AE Fans. And if you ever want to sell some of the prototypes for that 45 euro price.... I live close to France  |
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namke
wonkystuff
electronics and sound, what's not to like?!
Posts: 686
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Post by namke on Feb 25, 2021 15:07:37 GMT
(I've kept out of this discussion long enough that I feel that my absence might be interpreted as some kind of statement in itself!) So: Firstly, I fully agree with the value/cost/ethics views (nicely presented spacedog ); everyone has their own 'red lines' and I would not attempt to persuade people otherwise. From my/wonkystuff point of view, the first modules (the Core1 and 5x5 matrix mixer) were made for my own use. Having looked at Eurorack and decided that it was way more expensive than I could justify, I made my own - Chinese manufacture of PCBs meant that although I only wanted one or two PCBs, I could make a batch of 10 and sell the surplus at gigs where I was actually using them (so, just another item of merch; no real difference from selling CDs or T-Shirts). After performing with them and selling out of the 'spares', second and third versions were created with the same mindset. During 2018-2019 I had various discussions with work colleagues about defining an 'ecosystem' where different modules could be interconnected, using a common 5v power supply etc. etc. Fast-forward to lockdown #1 of 2020 and my friend ashito announced to me that he had just got himself a starter rack 2. After looking at it I realised that this was the ecosystem that I'd been trying to define -- therefore it was a 'no brainer' to update designs into something that would integrate with the Tangible Waves system. There was no intention to start a 'business', it just happened that the modules were interesting to other people and so they get sold. There is no 'business model', I am making modules for myself as a hobby and if they happen to be interesting enough for other people then that's a bonus I am also getting old enough that retirement is starting to be a consideration and it would be nice to have something to do when I quit the day job and draw my meagre pension  I personally have no problem with having PCBs made in China (I have looked for more local producers, but have found that in many cases all that happens is that you are dealing with a broker who project-manages the production in China anyway and of course charges for it). Perhaps I should add to the website that the PCBs are manufactured in China, and that most of the surface mount components are also added there? I hand-solder some SMD parts, and all through-hole components; final assembly of panel+PCB and testing is all done manually. Oof. That went on a bit. There may be edits later as I re-read the waflle  |
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