Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2019 8:12:20 GMT
Hello everybody, I'm happy to be here and thanks to AE Modular I will make my first steps into building an actual modular system. The thing with modular systems is that you can build a lot of things that would be much harder to find in fixed architecture systems. You can literally build a 'dream system'. So I figured that perhaps I could start by building something I could never have access to but which I have longed for and dreamed about; a West Coast inspired system - or in other words something akin to a Buchla Easel. To be clear, I don't expect something that sounds like a Buchla but that has similar possibilities, especially the randomness factor that is so characteristic with West Coast systems. I have no idea if there are members here who know enough about the Easel to help me build such a system, but I figured it wouldn't hurt to ask.  For those amongst you who would be interested, here is the manual for the vst version of the Easel by Arturia, which is quite insightful: downloads.arturia.com/products/buchla-easel-v/manual/buchla-easel-v_Manual_1_0_EN.pdfAnyway, so far I have already been tinkering and these are the things I think I need so far: - MASTER & Case (obviously) - TRIQ164 2x - VCO 2x - LFO - Wavefolder - Noise 2x - LOPAG - 2ENV - SAMPLE&HOLD - 2VCA - SPRINGREVERB & MULTIFX I know I will need the upcoming QUANTIZER and ENV FOLLOWER too, once they are available (thanks Robert!). I'll probably need some more things but like I said, since I am a neophyte - I'd appreciate all help I can get (thanks in advance!). |
|
|
|
Post by spacedog on Nov 8, 2019 9:54:24 GMT
Hello everybody, I'm happy to be here and thanks to AE Modular I will make my first steps into building an actual modular system. The thing with modular systems is that you can build a lot of things that would be much harder to find in fixed architecture systems. You can literally build a 'dream system'. So I figured that perhaps I could start by building something I could never have access to but which I have longed for and dreamed about; a West Coast inspired system - or in other words something akin to a Buchla Easel. To be clear, I don't expect something that sounds like a Buchla but that has similar possibilities, especially the randomness factor that is so characteristic with West Coast systems. I have no idea if there are members here who know enough about the Easel to help me build such a system, but I figured it wouldn't hurt to ask. For those amongst you who would be interested, here is the manual for the vst version of the Easel by Arturia, which is quite insightful: downloads.arturia.com/products/buchla-easel-v/manual/buchla-easel-v_Manual_1_0_EN.pdfAnyway, so far I have already been tinkering and these are the things I think I need so far: - MASTER & Case (obviously) - TRIQ164 2x - VCO 2x - LFO - Wavefolder - Noise 2x - LOPAG - 2ENV - SAMPLE&HOLD - 2VCA - SPRINGREVERB & MULTIFX I know I will need the upcoming QUANTIZER and ENV FOLLOWER too, once they are available (thanks Robert!). I'll probably need some more things but like I said, since I am a neophyte - I'd appreciate all help I can get (thanks in advance!). Hi phil That's an admirable (and fun) thing to aim for. I'll cut straight to it, from my perspective the key issue is going to be creating a complex oscillator, i.e. one where you're adding and manipulating components to create a waveform. As I'm sure you've researched, the crux is that you're manipulating the basic waveform (adding and shaping components of the waveform). This is easily done using FM, for example, followed by functions like wavefolding and time-varying envelopes. Plus, the low-pass gate is a firm favourite to get that classic "plunk" sound so beloved of Buchla-ites. So, looking at this, you're there with the low-pass gate (and it's a decent one, for a great price), you're there with a Wavefolder, and we now have CV control and the attack and decay of the envelope; plus, on the horizon is full CV control of all four envelope parameters (this may be a while though). What we don't have yet is an oscillator that can work in that West Coast style. Now, I wanted to experiment with this idea myself and my solution was to buy the cheap Bastl Kastle, it's gritty and its oscillator control very much provides the base for some West Coat leanings (in my opinion). The beauty is that it completely patches into the AE Modular, so integration is as simple as just running patch cables between the two units. You do have to create a 0v connection, so the audio out is a simple way to do that. That has become my complex oscillator for the AE Modular. I have had a lot of fun with this pairing and with real-time tweaking of cross-patched modulations, you can get an excellent West Coast feel. I should mention that I also have a Make Noise 0-Coast and this AE/Bastl pairing stacks up very well. The 0-Coast is a wonderful beast that requires taming and does offer a true complex oscillator, but it's also not cheap. I'm sure some of my posts here feature the pairing of the AE with the Bastl, and it can be heard very regularly on various pieces that I put out. The first few minutes of this one, for example, feature the AE/Bastl pairing to create some interesting ambient noise. |
|
|
|
Post by spacedog on Nov 8, 2019 10:30:23 GMT
And... as an aside... If you really want to get even more Buchla-esque, and you want to add a capacitive keyboard and an excellent sequencer (as well as a further source of interesting oscillators), the Arturia MicroFreak is a decent addition. Then you're really starting to build yourself an interesting West Coast styled setup. The keyboard offers a different approach that takes some work, but it's worth it, especially as you can send the pressure, i.e. how much finger you put down (definitely sounds dodgy) out as a CV together with pitch and gate. Yes, I do have one of those as well and, as I've said here before, I think the potential is not obvious with the horrible presets that almost all reviewers continue to use. I have created some lovely sounds for my puropses and even managed some soloing on it, but you have to be careful as finger-spill does not sound great when it's out of key - unless you do it again a few more times and pretend that you meant to do it in the first place |
|
|
|
Post by Gaëtan on Nov 8, 2019 12:16:52 GMT
Amusingly enough I have asked myself the same question as phil and arrived at the same conclusions as spacedog. However I think it would be possible to patch a complex oscillator from AE modules because a complex osc is basically a bunch of modules pre-patched behind the scenes. With 2 VCOs, a dual VCA, a 2ATT/CV and a Wavefolder you should basically be most of the way there. However there are some caveats : 1) There is no sine osc in AE, although the VCO has triangle (which you can further refine with a filter)
2) The triangle waveform is quieter than the others, so you'd need a 2SIGNALAMP too 3) You can't do through-zero FM or AM (i.e ring mod) with AE yet. I am not sure whether Buchla uses it or not but it is a feature that FM guys like a lot.
4) You cannot get smoothed random CV yet because AE doesn't have a slew limiter. It is coming very soon though. 5) I wish AE had a simple 5 (to 8 step) CV sequencer like the easel, but you can always use the SEQ16 6) Don't forget the mixers
While writing I've had a bit of fun trying out what that could look like
Attachments:
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2019 12:17:10 GMT
Hi phil That's an admirable (and fun) thing to aim for. I'll cut straight to it, from my perspective the key issue is going to be creating a complex oscillator, i.e. one where you're adding and manipulating components to create a waveform. As I'm sure you've researched, the crux is that you're manipulating the basic waveform (adding and shaping components of the waveform). This is easily done using FM, for example, followed by functions like wavefolding and time-varying envelopes. Plus, the low-pass gate is a firm favourite to get that classic "plunk" sound so beloved of Buchla-ites. So, looking at this, you're there with the low-pass gate (and it's a decent one, for a great price), you're there with a Wavefolder, and we now have CV control and the attack and decay of the envelope; plus, on the horizon is full CV control of all four envelope parameters (this may be a while though). What we don't have yet is an oscillator that can work in that West Coast style. Now, I wanted to experiment with this idea myself and my solution was to buy the cheap Bastl Kastle, it's gritty and its oscillator control very much provides the base for some West Coat leanings (in my opinion). The beauty is that it completely patches into the AE Modular, so integration is as simple as just running patch cables between the two units. You do have to create a 0v connection, so the audio out is a simple way to do that. That has become my complex oscillator for the AE Modular. I have had a lot of fun with this pairing and with real-time tweaking of cross-patched modulations, you can get an excellent West Coast feel. I should mention that I also have a Make Noise 0-Coast and this AE/Bastl pairing stacks up very well. The 0-Coast is a wonderful beast that requires taming and does offer a true complex oscillator, but it's also not cheap. I'm sure some of my posts here feature the pairing of the AE with the Bastl, and it can be heard very regularly on various pieces that I put out. The first few minutes of this one, for example, feature the AE/Bastl pairing to create some interesting ambient noise. And... as an aside... If you really want to get even more Buchla-esque, and you want to add a capacitive keyboard and an excellent sequencer (as well as a further source of interesting oscillators), the Arturia MicroFreak is a decent addition. Then you're really starting to build yourself an interesting West Coast styled setup. The keyboard offers a different approach that takes some work, but it's worth it, especially as you can send the pressure, i.e. how much finger you put down (definitely sounds dodgy) out as a CV together with pitch and gate. Yes, I do have one of those as well and, as I've said here before, I think the potential is not obvious with the horrible presets that almost all reviewers continue to use. I have created some lovely sounds for my puropses and even managed some soloing on it, but you have to be careful as finger-spill does not sound great when it's out of key - unless you do it again a few more times and pretend that you meant to do it in the first place Thank you spacedog for taking the time to respond. You're absolutely right about Buchla's complex oscillator, however I'm assuming that the Easel is a little less complex (at least that's what I'm assuming so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), according to the Arturia manual: you blend a wave folded sine waveform with either a impulse train, a
square or a triangle. So, we're missing the sinewave (although it's something Robert is working on I've gathered) and perhaps we can use the LFO pulse for the impulsetrain? While not possible at the present moment - there's still hope for it to be possible (unless ofcourse my assumptions are wrong)? Okay, so you brought another very interesting subject by mentioning the Kastl synth. You said to use an audio port to make the connection - however I've read you can directly inter-connect the Kastl with the AE as they run on the same +5v voltages. Any reason for using the audio port (perhaps to take advantage of the circuit protection)? Which brings me to another question (forgive me for having so many questions): my only experience coming from the Volca Modular - it had the distinctive advantage of having audio and cv connection clearly labeled (the audio ports had a little circular marking while the cv ones didn't) - how do you know the difference in AE modules? Thank you for the audio example of pairing the Kastl & AE - you've made some great sounds that way! Yes, I've also been thinking about the Arturia Microfreak keyboard as a great Buchla like input device and I'll definitely look into it once I have the system running |
|
|
|
Post by spacedog on Nov 8, 2019 13:13:24 GMT
Thank you spacedog for taking the time to respond. [...] Okay, so you brought another very interesting subject by mentioning the Kastl synth. You said to use an audio port to make the connection - however I've read you can directly inter-connect the Kastl with the AE as they run on the same +5v voltages. Any reason for using the audio port (perhaps to take advantage of the circuit protection)? Which brings me to another question (forgive me for having so many questions): my only experience coming from the Volca Modular - it had the distinctive advantage of having audio and cv connection clearly labeled (the audio ports had a little circular marking while the cv ones didn't) - how do you know the difference in AE modules? Thank you for the audio example of pairing the Kastl & AE - you've made some great sounds that way! Yes, I've also been thinking about the Arturia Microfreak keyboard as a great Buchla like input device and I'll definitely look into it once I have the system running On the interconnection of the AE and the Bastl, I do cross-patch between the two as they are absolutely compatible, as you say. I send the audio out from the Bastl both to have it available as needed (it just goes to a free 3.5mm input, e.g. 4I/O, and can be patched in as needed) and also to create the 0v point across the two, which enables the cross-patching using the patch cables - you need a common 0V connection for stability. BTW, the new AE patch cable are a very snug fit in the Bastl, requiring a bit of extra force, so I stuck with the old cables. Thanks for listening, the potential to lose yourself in improvisation with this equiment is massive and I always make sure that I press record before I start. Recently, I wasn't record-ready when I came upon a fantastic (to my ears) sequence, entirely within the AE Modular and I got twitchy until I could set up for recording. I broke my own rule The MicroFreak is a nice addition for me. The capacitive keyboard is different enough to promote another way of thinking and the oscillators are the digital yang to the AE's analogue yin. |
|
|
|
Post by spacedog on Nov 8, 2019 14:08:43 GMT
Amusingly enough I have asked myself the same question as phil and arrived at the same conclusions as spacedog. However I think it would be possible to patch a complex oscillator from AE modules because a complex osc is basically a bunch of modules pre-patched behind the scenes. With 2 VCOs, a dual VCA, a 2ATT/CV and a Wavefolder you should basically be most of the way there. However there are some caveats : 1) There is no sine osc in AE, although the VCO has triangle (which you can further refine with a filter)
2) The triangle waveform is quieter than the others, so you'd need a 2SIGNALAMP too 3) You can't do through-zero FM or AM (i.e ring mod) with AE yet. I am not sure whether Buchla uses it or not but it is a feature that FM guys like a lot.
4) You cannot get smoothed random CV yet because AE doesn't have a slew limiter. It is coming very soon though. 5) I wish AE had a simple 5 (to 8 step) CV sequencer like the easel, but you can always use the SEQ16 6) Don't forget the mixers
While writing I've had a bit of fun trying out what that could look like
Apart from the slew jobbie, I could do that... this afternoon's project perhaps, after I finish working. Maybe a bit of careful LPF-ing could get me there on the slew, I have quite a few filters - you can never have enough filters... or LFOs... or envelopes... or VCAs... As the starting point is a triangle wave, there is already a bit of complexity added to a sine wave, so I would be tempted to just amplify and fold it, rather than try to get back to a sine. Of course, if you have more than one VCO then you can start to get some nice waveforms with tuning and careful mixing - add a bit of sequencer control to the pitch and Bob's your Banana. The lack of pure FM is a drawback, but that's why I draft in the Bastl. As for Ring Mod, whilst I haven't tried it (yet), can we do that with the XOR in the LOGIC module...? |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2019 14:13:40 GMT
Amusingly enough I have asked myself the same question as phil and arrived at the same conclusions as spacedog. However I think it would be possible to patch a complex oscillator from AE modules because a complex osc is basically a bunch of modules pre-patched behind the scenes. With 2 VCOs, a dual VCA, a 2ATT/CV and a Wavefolder you should basically be most of the way there. However there are some caveats : 1) There is no sine osc in AE, although the VCO has triangle (which you can further refine with a filter)
2) The triangle waveform is quieter than the others, so you'd need a 2SIGNALAMP too 3) You can't do through-zero FM or AM (i.e ring mod) with AE yet. I am not sure whether Buchla uses it or not but it is a feature that FM guys like a lot.
4) You cannot get smoothed random CV yet because AE doesn't have a slew limiter. It is coming very soon though. 5) I wish AE had a simple 5 (to 8 step) CV sequencer like the easel, but you can always use the SEQ16 6) Don't forget the mixers
While writing I've had a bit of fun trying out what that could look like
Hello gaetan and thank you for joining the conversation. Agreed about the complex generator, like previously mentioned, it's not quite there yet but there's hope for implementation with future modules. While not identical to the Buchla, you gave however a great explanation on how to implement something similar with the current modules, even if it still has some caveats, it's still a great starting point! Hadn't heard about through-zero FM/AM until you mentioned it. A quick search online and it seems Buchla uses regular fm/am modulation BUT AE could definitely benefit from it's implementation (@robert!). You can't get smoothed random CV? I would have thought the SLEW/EDGE was capable of just that? I've just read you can limit SEQ16: for this, connect one of the trigger outputs with the RESET input of the SEQ16. E.g. if trigger output 11 is connected to RESET, the sequence will be 10 steps long. www.tangiblewaves.com/uploads/2/6/6/8/26688354/seq16_manual.pdfThank you for illustrating the basic design. |
|
|
|
Post by spacedog on Nov 8, 2019 14:23:28 GMT
Yes, way back in one of the patch challenges I'm sure that I created a patch using the 3VCSWITCH that changed the sequence loop point via a modulation source and some logic linked to the clock (only three points though). I did also set it up so that I could switch the loop point manually between three preset points by pressing the 3VCSWITCH buttons, rather than the more death-defying method of re-patching the point live - which I have also done, with vague success and some happy accidents. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2019 14:26:10 GMT
On the interconnection of the AE and the Bastl, I do cross-patch between the two as they are absolutely compatible, as you say. I send the audio out from the Bastl both to have it available as needed (it just goes to a free 3.5mm input, e.g. 4I/O, and can be patched in as needed) and also to create the 0v point across the two, which enables the cross-patching using the patch cables - you need a common 0V connection for stability. BTW, the new AE patch cable are a very snug fit in the Bastl, requiring a bit of extra force, so I stuck with the old cables. Thanks for listening, the potential to lose yourself in improvisation with this equiment is massive and I always make sure that I press record before I start. Recently, I wasn't record-ready when I came upon a fantastic (to my ears) sequence, entirely within the AE Modular and I got twitchy until I could set up for recording. I broke my own rule The MicroFreak is a nice addition for me. The capacitive keyboard is different enough to promote another way of thinking and the oscillators are the digital yang to the AE's analogue yin. Ah, now I understand - so with an audio connection you create the 0v connection for stability. Speaking of, I just realized that the SOMA Lyra-8 uses a 'unipolar, range of 0 to +5 volt' - so that means it's compatible with AE? That would be great because it has CV control of the voices! That'll make for an interesting source indeed. I can definitely imagine the potential of losing oneself and the importance of being record-ready. Can't wait to get into that headspace myself! 'The digital yang to the AE's analogue yin' - that's a beautiful way of putting it! |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2019 8:24:47 GMT
Yes, way back in one of the patch challenges I'm sure that I created a patch using the 3VCSWITCH that changed the sequence loop point via a modulation source and some logic linked to the clock (only three points though). I did also set it up so that I could switch the loop point manually between three preset points by pressing the 3VCSWITCH buttons, rather than the more death-defying method of re-patching the point live - which I have also done, with vague success and some happy accidents. Very interesting, I could see this 3VCSWITCH come in handy for all kinds of situations. For ex. on the Easel you can have the sequencer run in stages (steps); 3, 4 or 5. So the 3VCSWITCH should come in handy. Still wondering about gaetan's 4th point: So the SLEW/EDGE isn't yet available? Because in the case of the Easel, I need: NOISE - SAMPLE&HOLD - SLEW/EDGE to create the random voltage generator. |
|
Lugia
Wiki Editors
Ridiculously busy...ish.
Posts: 556 
|
Post by Lugia on Nov 9, 2019 23:37:08 GMT
My Gargantua build will have six arrays that work like Buchla 258s...SORT OF. I say "sort of" because it's not exactly doable to have the same functionality as the 258 with the 258's subcomponents in the AE environment...so I punted, and came up with an array that incorporates six modules: a 2OSC/d, a 2VCA, two VCOs, a MIXER 4-4, and a WAVEFOLDER. With this, I can have the dual FM capability on _both_ primary VCOs, using the VCAs to control FM levels on the primaries, then mixing these down and wavefolding the result. Not exactly the same, as I noted...but potentially a bit more potent since the 258 hardwires some of what my complex VCO array has as patchables. So I can easily have the primary AND secondary VCOs in that final mix-to-wavefolder bit, or the wavefolder can be used at other points in the array, or I can mult control signals that you can't really mess with in a real 258, and so on.
Certanly a helluva lot CHEAPER than a Buchla 258! And yeah, the SLEW/EDGE is in the module listings now, subject to the same leadtimes as anything else AFAIK.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2019 8:47:54 GMT
My Gargantua build will have six arrays that work like Buchla 258s...SORT OF. I say "sort of" because it's not exactly doable to have the same functionality as the 258 with the 258's subcomponents in the AE environment...so I punted, and came up with an array that incorporates six modules: a 2OSC/d, a 2VCA, two VCOs, a MIXER 4-4, and a WAVEFOLDER. With this, I can have the dual FM capability on _both_ primary VCOs, using the VCAs to control FM levels on the primaries, then mixing these down and wavefolding the result. Not exactly the same, as I noted...but potentially a bit more potent since the 258 hardwires some of what my complex VCO array has as patchables. So I can easily have the primary AND secondary VCOs in that final mix-to-wavefolder bit, or the wavefolder can be used at other points in the array, or I can mult control signals that you can't really mess with in a real 258, and so on.
Certanly a helluva lot CHEAPER than a Buchla 258! And yeah, the SLEW/EDGE is in the module listings now, subject to the same leadtimes as anything else AFAIK.
Thank you for joining in Lugia. That 6 array for your Gargantua build is indeed very interesting and the 'sort of' approach is exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for. After all, what I want is to build a West Coast inspired synth, not a precise Buchla clone. Ah, I see - module listings are also subject to waiting times, thank you for clearing this up. Do you have any ideas or suggestions about how to tackle the 'Source of Uncertainty' (266), right now I have something like a basic random generator but if a more complex is faisable, I'd be glad to hear your input. |
|
Lugia
Wiki Editors
Ridiculously busy...ish.
Posts: 556
|
Post by Lugia on Nov 10, 2019 21:18:02 GMT
An SOU? Now that's a rather different critter...it's not so much a 100% random thing as it is a weighted randomness generator. You'd have to work out how to get the different sampled voltages working within the mathematical distribution schemes and at present I don't think the AE system does much with probabilistics.
Not that it shouldn't or can't, mind you...an AE variation on the SOU would be _killer!_
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2019 7:40:34 GMT
An SOU? Now that's a rather different critter...it's not so much a 100% random thing as it is a weighted randomness generator. You'd have to work out how to get the different sampled voltages working within the mathematical distribution schemes and at present I don't think the AE system does much with probabilistics.
Not that it shouldn't or can't, mind you...an AE variation on the SOU would be _killer!_
I was hoping there was a way around it, but it's obviously more complex than that. Guess I'm gonna have to stick to the simpler random voltage generator for now. Now, on a completely different subject, I have been thinking about the principle of the Lyra-8 and how it would be fairly easy to implement into AE. Again, not to make a clone or copy but simply the idea of 1 touch sensor controlling 1 osc with a dedicated pitch. Unfortunately, having no experience in electronics, I have no idea how easy a touch senor is to implement in the system? Or perhaps there are plans for an upcoming module? |
|
|
|
Post by rodney on Nov 13, 2019 10:14:58 GMT
My Gargantua build will have six arrays that work like Buchla 258s...SORT OF. I say "sort of" because it's not exactly doable to have the same functionality as the 258 with the 258's subcomponents in the AE environment...so I punted, and came up with an array that incorporates six modules: a 2OSC/d, a 2VCA, two VCOs, a MIXER 4-4, and a WAVEFOLDER. With this, I can have the dual FM capability on _both_ primary VCOs, using the VCAs to control FM levels on the primaries, then mixing these down and wavefolding the result. Not exactly the same, as I noted...but potentially a bit more potent since the 258 hardwires some of what my complex VCO array has as patchables. So I can easily have the primary AND secondary VCOs in that final mix-to-wavefolder bit, or the wavefolder can be used at other points in the array, or I can mult control signals that you can't really mess with in a real 258, and so on.
Certanly a helluva lot CHEAPER than a Buchla 258! And yeah, the SLEW/EDGE is in the module listings now, subject to the same leadtimes as anything else AFAIK.
"Muuuu-hahahahaha!" |
|
