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Post by robertlanger on Aug 26, 2019 16:58:15 GMT
Hi guys, I'd like to hear your thoughts on a module idea that came to my mind: It's about mixing; it seems one cannot have enough mixers, so my thought is how to get the maximum of mixing inputs into one module width. Usually, a mixer has knobs to control the levels, which limits it to 4 channels like in MIXER4-4 (plus 4 passive mixing channels) or 4ATTMIX module. But I think, often it's not necessary to control the individual levels so exactly (e.g. mixing 3 oscillators to get a fat sound); so why not determine the level more coarse by three different inputs per channel with different attenuations? I attached a mockup how the module could look like; by this, we could get 4 mixers with 4 channels each; with a switch two mixers could be combined to get a 8-chan mixer, and of course a switch for selecting DC/CV or audio. With an additional switch for pre-attenuation of 1 / 0.66 we can get six different levels per input channel; see the following table (multipliers and corresponding dB values for audio) 1.00 0 dB 0.66 -3.6 dB 0.50 -6 dB 0.33 -9.6 dB 0.25 -12 dB 0.16 -16 dB I hope you get the idea? If yes, please let me know your opinion, if you find it useful, what could be improved/changed, if the attenuation factors are suitable.... IMO, it would make an easy, compact and quite versatile multiple mixer at a low price. Thanks a lot for any positive or negative feedback! (EDIT: just saw an error in the sketch; the pre-attenuator and AUD/DC switches have to be doubled, so they exist for each of the four mixers.)
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Post by moruial on Aug 26, 2019 17:12:44 GMT
If I understand correctly, it would mean that each mixer has 3 diffrent value? However I don't really get the 0.66/1 thing :/
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bahm
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Post by bahm on Aug 26, 2019 21:58:05 GMT
I personally would buy the available mixers over this, just because I can control the levels if I want to, even if I don't always do it. A CV controllable mixer would be more what I want. Also the sockets in the middle of the modules are kind of changing the design of the synth a bit. I would buy 1 of this module. Just for some uses and to own it. Maybe I would use it more often than I think. And maybe I'm the only a one who thinks like this.
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Lugia
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Post by Lugia on Aug 26, 2019 22:23:37 GMT
Not sure about the usefulness of this as a mixer. But if this could be the starting point for an _CV adder,_ well...the ability to have that as a transposition tool for a general VCO group CV could be pretty useful as long as you could avoid the +5V ceiling (voltage limiting, natch). Then, instead of attenuations of the sort here, you could set up attenuation as an octave selection function, perhaps even in fifths? So you'd get something like an -1 8va, - P5, then 0, or -2 8Va, -1 8va, 0. Couple this with a buffered mult, and that would kick ass!
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Post by Gaëtan on Aug 27, 2019 5:53:52 GMT
Not sure either, the idea sounds good but most of the time I want precise control of the mix levels, both for CV and audio, in order to find the sweet spots.
However I noticed that I rarely need to mix more than 2 signals, so most of the time, the most convenient thing I could use is a crossfader. I'll link to my idea from one of my first posts : forum.aemodular.com/post/1692/thread
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pol
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Post by pol on Aug 28, 2019 15:49:38 GMT
Hi Robert, I understand what you are trying to do, but suspect this module would be too coarse for must functions - in audio tiny changes can have a big impact, and CV control can be equally fussy... What I feel would be much more useful is a mixer with voltage control per channel - so you can fade in noise with an envelope, or have another oscillator amplitude modulating in and out of the sound via an LFO. That could maybe have switches to set a level, and then modulate from there, i.e. no knobs!
Hope this post is a sign you are doing better, best wishes.
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thundersound
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A modular world .. from Aa to Thunder and beyond
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Post by thundersound on Aug 29, 2019 0:38:51 GMT
I like the idea of this mixing. In Eurorack I needed some 1-2 and 1-3 mixers without attenuation. This could be a welcome idea in some cases, for example in case of a 'counter like' module with more outputs over time (would be a nice AE modular module too), so the outputs are not in the same time-frame, but must be on the same 'channel'. Also I have a frequency splitter, and wanted to combine some frequencies out of the spectrum. so also there no attenuation wass needed. So i think in future I could use some unity mixing without attenuation in AE modular also. The different levels of input could be handy, that would use very much space in Eurorack, but here it is very easy to accomplish.
Other possible area's : if you have a complex drum rythem with different kicks and other drums. if you have different 'channels' with already attennuated audio only to have an effect (reverb/delay) on the end of each channel, and in the end combined.
There is 1 additional idea I really like from much make noise modules (dynamix / optomix / etc.) that is decentralised mixing. I do not knot if only they use it, and if it is protected, but I think an aux input woul always be handy in a lot of modules, maybe also in this module.
In my current setup, the 4 ultimate outputs (4th of each channel) of this mixer would go to Eurorack, I would love to see 4 additional eurorack compliant 3,5 mm jacks, maybe even without the '0,6 attenuation' of the channel. I know it would make the module pricier, but maybe this could be an option on several modules (I think on VCA /Mixing modules). Default without those outputs, but optional (for a higher price) with these 'end' outputs for Eurorack / other synths, possible combined with an amplifier / offset possibility per channel.
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Post by rodney on Aug 29, 2019 5:36:59 GMT
I like this. Keeping it simple and one-space is key (oh, cheap, of course).
I often feel like a simple summing bus would be great for a lot of things.
I like the switchability in your design.
r.
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thundersound
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A modular world .. from Aa to Thunder and beyond
Posts: 82
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Post by thundersound on Aug 29, 2019 17:55:18 GMT
Hi Robert, I understand what you are trying to do, but suspect this module would be too coarse for must functions - in audio tiny changes can have a big impact, and CV control can be equally fussy... What I feel would be much more useful is a mixer with voltage control per channel - so you can fade in noise with an envelope, or have another oscillator amplitude modulating in and out of the sound via an LFO. That could maybe have switches to set a level, and then modulate from there, i.e. no knobs! Hope this post is a sign you are doing better, best wishes. In eurorack there are many small (2 hp) dual 3 to 1 / 7 to 1 mixers without any form of attenuation (no knob/no cv). And there are many suppliers (firms) that make such unity mixers. But at the moment there are not yet many purposes in AE modular, but that can change in future.
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thundersound
Junior Member
A modular world .. from Aa to Thunder and beyond
Posts: 82
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Post by thundersound on Aug 30, 2019 18:30:10 GMT
Like I said before I used unity mixers in some cases, but the problem is that in the patches I made, there were a lot of patch cables needed for what in my mind should be an easier job.
first of all, most of the time I needed some (buffered) mults for some channels . So I combined some sources, and needed to distribute that mix further.
I do not know about the power behind the electronics you want to use, but what I would like to see is 2 columns where every out signal has a copy, without bringing down or disturbing the signal. And if possible the final (4th) output of each mixer could even have 2 copies, or 3 outputs.
Another idea I had is that 4 exactly similar mixers could be a little much, so I thought maybe the last block could be a special one: But because maybe you need 4 for some reason I would think it could be normal behaviour, but with a switch you could have another functionality: If you use the 3th block, all the inputs from the 3th block are inverted, and defaulted to the 4th mixer. (first row from mixer 3 inverted to the first row of mixer 4... etc. etc.) But if you use one of the inputs of the 4th mixer, that input overules the inverted input from the 3th mixer. or a switch per input could be possible : normal from 3th block, normal from 4th block, inverted from 3th block.
There were some patches where this kind of behaviour could save me a lot of space in the rack and a lot of cables. Off course this is also possible for mixer 1 and 2. I hope you understand what I mean Robert, otherwise I could try to draw some sketches to let you know what I mean.
Another point what could be used, (also in other mixers) is a kind of feedback from the endmix of 1 of the mixers to the inputs. (that was one of the strong points of the DSI mopho in my eyes). A kind of distortion effect will be possible with this possibility.
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Post by lukylutte on Sept 25, 2019 6:36:36 GMT
I would use this to create or enhance the stereo image of a patch. I'd put it just before the main out with different value off attenuation for each element. Lick kick in middle, pad on left, string on right and so on... With this no need of hard panning. For basic mixing before there are plenty of option with the already exist (VCA of the voice or mixer). So I'd definitely would be buying it So basically, kinda wish it would happen! But I guess a performance mixer with CV control over panning and attenuation would be more appealing to most (but surely way bigger for the same amount of channels).
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Post by Synths&Things on Sept 25, 2019 9:08:46 GMT
I actually really really really like this idea of the module. Only thing I can come up with is having an attenuation knob that could set the ratio of the inputs/outputs. I don't know if that's possible, but it would be a best of both worlds. To explain the attachment a bit: P1, P2, P3 stands for the patchpoints. The attenuation of the knob alters the level ratio of the patch points. This way you can still "dial" in the level to a certain extent. Attachments:
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Post by robertlanger on Oct 14, 2019 14:42:09 GMT
At the Dutch Modular Fest I heard an interesting idea: Adding CV control for the sum output level of each mixer; so we had a quad VCA plus a 4channel mixer (with the defined attenuations) before each VCA. What do you thing about this? A quad VCA is around in my head for some time anyway...
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Post by rockysmalls on Oct 14, 2019 22:08:51 GMT
At the Dutch Modular Fest I heard an interesting idea: Adding CV control for the sum output level of each mixer; so we had a quad VCA plus a 4channel mixer (with the defined attenuations) before each VCA. What do you thing about this? A quad VCA is around in my head for some time anyway... I am firmly in favour of this idea ;-)
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Post by lukylutte on Oct 15, 2019 4:51:50 GMT
At the Dutch Modular Fest I heard an interesting idea: Adding CV control for the sum output level of each mixer; so we had a quad VCA plus a 4channel mixer (with the defined attenuations) before each VCA. What do you thing about this? A quad VCA is around in my head for some time anyway... Quad VCA That would make quad VCA Mixer would be nice!
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Lugia
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Post by Lugia on Oct 17, 2019 3:42:46 GMT
Quad VCA? I'm down with that. Add another set of VCAs for panning, and you've got yourself a 4-channel stereo performance mixer. AUX send/return might be nice, too...either VCA or not.
Whole thing might make a nice fit on a 2 sp blank. However, I'm likely to hold out for an 8-channel version of that idea (on a 4 sp). At any rate, a quad VCA would make for a killer CVable submix...VCOs, VCFs, mod signals, that sort of thing. Just as long as the resultant output isn't mathematically added (big oops for mod signals...would probably result in over/undervoltage states), that would rock.
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Post by rodney on Nov 3, 2019 22:55:19 GMT
At the Dutch Modular Fest I heard an interesting idea: Adding CV control for the sum output level of each mixer; so we had a quad VCA plus a 4channel mixer (with the defined attenuations) before each VCA. What do you thing about this? A quad VCA is around in my head for some time anyway... Aye!
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Post by slowscape on Nov 5, 2019 22:00:58 GMT
Adding CV control for the sum output level of each mixer YES! I'll bet you could get some interesting waveforms with that! I'll have to play with that idea in Audulus and see how it could be utilized.
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