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Post by feijai on Jun 16, 2024 10:05:02 GMT
The existing MASTER I/O (and POWER) come with wall-warts that deliver 1.3 amps maximum, but it's not clear what the MASTER I/O nor POWER provide, though I vaguely recall 500ma or 800ma. As anyone with two cases knows, this is not good. The voltage drop is considerable when you add more modules, and I am especially sensitive this as it affects GRAINS projects in a big way. I think the voltage instability is one of the bigger weaknesses in the AE system. I think that one major improvement to MASTER I/O or POWER would be to push them to 2 providing amps on the ribbon cable. I don't know if this requires replacing the wall-wart alone or redesigning the modules in question.
A very small 30-gauge 3M Ribbon cable can take about 1A and a 28-gauge can take 1.5A. BUT we are running current down two wires, at 30 gauge so we can probably take 2A and 28 gauge we probably can take 3A. A 2A 9V adapter might run about $15 to $20. So here are the questions: - Can I slap on a 2A 9V adapter and get better voltage out of the existing MASTER I/O and POWER? (Does it make any difference -- they're limited anyway maybe -- or maybe would it cause heating issues in them if they pass it through?) The discord group suggested that maybe the MASTER I/O could go to 800mA or possibly to 2A)
- If the Master I/O or POWER have to be redesigned to provide more than their basic current, how do we convince the powers that be to do this?
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gerif
Junior Member
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Post by gerif on Jun 16, 2024 12:58:38 GMT
The limitation for the power consumption inside a rack is the 5V stabilitation/regulation unit inside the MASTER respectiviely the POWER module!
With many racks and a lot of modules with higher power consumption one MASTER or one POWER module could be overloaded.
In such a case it is necessary to have more than one power supply unit e.g. one MASTER and one additional POWER module.
The different supply modules shall be installed in different racks. e.g. : Rack 1 and 2 supplied from MASTER Rack 3 supplied form POWER
At least the GND shall be connected to enable common operation of all racks. If the same bus signals should be used over all racks the RACKLINK can be used to open the 5V between rack 1/2 and rack 3!
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Post by pt3r on Jun 17, 2024 6:32:11 GMT
I have to perform a whole ritual when powering up my 2 AE racks respecting the order in which I power them up otherwise the METER module in rack 1 does not initialise properly and never manages to display proper info. The same goes for samplyr in rack 2 it will show a screen full ow noise and not work at all. Both racks are powered with individual master I/O and power modules and separate wall warts. If I check on the website my racks should have plenty of juice left in the power supplies but the reality states otherwise.
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Post by dizzeesatchel on Jun 17, 2024 8:44:49 GMT
IIRC that's not so much to do with the amount of power available but rather the speed at which different parts of the module boot up - one of the perils of working with OLEDs  Do you have the inline power switch on your wall warts? I think that's supposed to help. |
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Post by pt3r on Jun 17, 2024 10:39:08 GMT
Yes I do on both wall warts. And unfortunately I also have the oled on the AEuropi which lives beside the samplyr in the same rack. But yes those pesky oleds could explain something. Will try to turn the display on the samplyr of to see whether that helps bith booting issues.
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Post by robertlanger on Jun 17, 2024 13:53:54 GMT
I have to perform a whole ritual when powering up my 2 AE racks respecting the order in which I power them up otherwise the METER module in rack 1 does not initialise properly and never manages to display proper info. The same goes for samplyr in rack 2 it will show a screen full ow noise and not work at all. Both racks are powered with individual master I/O and power modules and separate wall warts. If I check on the website my racks should have plenty of juice left in the power supplies but the reality states otherwise. A short while ago I have investigated the METER issue; especially because I found that it's even worse with the Quickswap case because of the additional buffer capacitor on the bus boards. This seems to be fixed by a firmware change. After a final verification unter different configurations, I will offer a firmware update! |
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Post by robertlanger on Jun 17, 2024 14:18:50 GMT
The existing MASTER I/O (and POWER) come with wall-warts that deliver 1.3 amps maximum, but it's not clear what the MASTER I/O nor POWER provide, though I vaguely recall 500ma or 800ma. As anyone with two cases knows, this is not good. The voltage drop is considerable when you add more modules, and I am especially sensitive this as it affects GRAINS projects in a big way. I think the voltage instability is one of the bigger weaknesses in the AE system. I think that one major improvement to MASTER I/O or POWER would be to push them to 2 providing amps on the ribbon cable. I don't know if this requires replacing the wall-wart alone or redesigning the modules in question.
A very small 30-gauge 3M Ribbon cable can take about 1A and a 28-gauge can take 1.5A. BUT we are running current down two wires, at 30 gauge so we can probably take 2A and 28 gauge we probably can take 3A. A 2A 9V adapter might run about $15 to $20. So here are the questio - Can I slap on a 2A 9V adapter and get better voltage out of the existing MASTER I/O and POWER? (Does it make any difference -- they're limited anyway maybe -- or maybe would it cause heating issues in them if they pass it through?) The discord group suggested that maybe the MASTER I/O could go to 800mA or possibly to 2A)
- If the Master I/O or POWER have to be redesigned to provide more than their basic current, how do we convince the powers that be to do this?
Thanks for the suggestions! The MASTER provides approx. 800 mA on the 5V bus side. To increase this to 2 amperes, not only a more powerful wall adapter would be necessary, but also another, quite different design for the module. The usual TO-220 (or SMD equivalents) can provide up to 2 amperes, but this means also a much more sohisticated cooling, with larger coolers (where to put them?) or even a fan (absolute NO-GO, of course!) The other point to consider is the ribbon connectors; these are not well suited to transport higher loads. So, all in all, my suggestion is to go with separate POWERs per case; no problem to feed two from one wall adapter via the DC splitter cable. This topic is arising especially after some more power hungry modules entered the AE stage, like RAINS, CIRRUS, WAVETABLES; most AE modules are in the range from 2 to 10 mA. So still a field for deeper research in the future... |
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Post by solipsistnation on Jun 17, 2024 18:08:13 GMT
I think I asked this before, but if I felt like not using most of the Master functionality (since other modules do MIDI and IO now), could I get, say, a nice regulated 3A (or higher) 5V supply and plug that straight into the bus? That seems like a good way to run really large racks or lots of the power hungry digital modules, as long is one is careful about wiring up the cable.
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gerif
Junior Member
Posts: 76
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Post by gerif on Jun 17, 2024 19:23:34 GMT
I think I asked this before, but if I felt like not using most of the Master functionality (since other modules do MIDI and IO now), could I get, say, a nice regulated 3A (or higher) 5V supply and plug that straight into the bus? That seems like a good way to run really large racks or lots of the power hungry digital modules, as long is one is careful about wiring up the cable. In this configuration it would be useful to connect the begin and the end of the bus cable to 5V and GND of the power supply. So there are two bus wires in parallel to each module! |
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Post by keurslagerkurt on Jun 21, 2024 9:29:14 GMT
Just another quick sidenote. 2A at 9V is way more power than 2A at 5V (P = I x U), so you probably wouldn't necessarily need a 2A 9V adapter to get better juice out of the rack.
- 1.3A at 9V = 11.7W
- 2A at 5V = 10W
This calculation is a bit too simplified however, because the Master module uses a so called LDO regulator to drop the voltage from 9V to 5V. These regulators are very 'silent' (no switching noise), which is great for audio, but also very inefficient. Its not uncommon for these to have an efficiency below 50% in specific cases, although the efficiency can vary WILDLY depending on tons of different factors (lower load = lower efficiency, higher temperature also causes effeciency to drop significantly).
So maybe a larger PSU would help, but it's almost impossible to say without testing. The MASTER module might also need a larger heatsink if you want to upgrade to larger power/current. On the other hand, I suspect that all these racks do not exceed 800mA in current 'in general', but rather have a problem with power spikes (very common at start up, or with digital modules in general). Maybe these power spikes could benefit from the extra headroom of a bigger 9V adapter, even without upgrading to a larger heatsink. Short spikes don't generate much heat at all.
In other words: power is pretty hard. It's why a lot of companies have there PSU design outsourced.
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Post by leethargo on Jun 22, 2024 14:42:54 GMT
Two hypothetical questions:
1) Say I added a POWER module to supply one half of my rack, while the the other half is supplied by MASTER I/O. Would it make sense to power both of these modules from the same powerbank (assuming sufficient capacity), or would that bring back problems of instability/noise?
2) If power spikes are observed only at start-up, could we not add a little switch to the short bus cable that connect one row to the next. Then, on start-up, we wait while the first row is powered up, and then flip the switch to also give power to the second row, while the first is already "settled"?
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Post by keurslagerkurt on Jun 23, 2024 15:10:01 GMT
Two hypothetical questions: 1) Say I added a POWER module to supply one half of my rack, while the the other half is supplied by MASTER I/O. Would it make sense to power both of these modules from the same powerbank (assuming sufficient capacity), or would that bring back problems of instability/noise? 2) If power spikes are observed only at start-up, could we not add a little switch to the short bus cable that connect one row to the next. Then, on start-up, we wait while the first row is powered up, and then flip the switch to also give power to the second row, while the first is already "settled"? 1) Certainly not instability, but noise might be an issue. When I use a powerbank to power both my small AE rack and a recorder, I need to use a 'noise reducing cable' (ie: a normal minijack with inline a small transformer to seperate the grounds) otherwise the noise level is insanely high. But maybe the two racks would be less of a problem? It's caused by ground loops, and they tend to be very unpredictable 2) This might def be a good strategy. |
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Do you have the inline power switch on your wall warts? I think that's supposed to help.
