frndo
Full Member
Posts: 110
|
Post by frndo on Jan 12, 2023 19:48:45 GMT
Hello! I search a super simple envelope schematic (AD); better it has been tested or it can be easily adapted to AE? I've tried a couple, even an arduino based one and can't get them to work right. Thank you!
Disclaimer: I´m totally noob in electronics!
|
|
|
|
Post by waporwave on Jan 14, 2023 4:38:10 GMT
I'm a noob too, but until someone more educated responds, here's a 5v super simple schematic that could be a place to start from:
tinyurl.com/2nv6yp2u
It's essentially a lowpass filter, where a capacitor is charged, with resistors limiting the current going through, with diodes in each direction to allow the rise and fall times to be changed individually. You can swap the resistors out for potentiometers to allow you to change A/D. Actual capacitor and resistor values will be different, and of course this has no voltage control yet, and the rise will be cut short if input is taken away. But best to understand what's going on first, right?
|
|
|
|
Post by duddex on Jan 14, 2023 9:58:11 GMT
I am a noob, too. So what I don't know is if these build instructions can easily adapted to AE. The modules from Moritz Klein use 12V. So the question is, how this has to be "converted" to 5V.
But nevertheless, these videos are quite informative.
Here is a video where he shows his envelope:
|
|
frndo
Full Member
Posts: 110
|
Post by frndo on Jan 15, 2023 14:55:28 GMT
I'm a noob too, but until someone more educated responds, here's a 5v super simple schematic that could be a place to start from:
tinyurl.com/2nv6yp2u
It's essentially a lowpass filter, where a capacitor is charged, with resistors limiting the current going through, with diodes in each direction to allow the rise and fall times to be changed individually. You can swap the resistors out for potentiometers to allow you to change A/D. Actual capacitor and resistor values will be different, and of course this has no voltage control yet, and the rise will be cut short if input is taken away. But best to understand what's going on first, right?
Hello! Thank you very much, it's a very ingenious solution, unfortunately I still can't get the relaxation potentiometer to work well (at least not with those resistor values). Do you have any idea how this scheme could work as a filter with resonance? |
|
frndo
Full Member
Posts: 110
|
Post by frndo on Jan 15, 2023 15:22:46 GMT
I am a noob, too. So what I don't know is if these build instructions can easily adapted to AE. The modules from Moritz Klein use 12V. So the question is, how this has to be "converted" to 5V. But nevertheless, these videos are quite informative. Here is a video where he shows his envelope: Thanks! if I follow the Moritz Klein channel, and I have tried the schematic of the active circuit *min.10:45 of the video, but it doesn't work well either. The resistances of the first OP Amp (use one rail to rail like those used in AE modules) I calculated with an online voltage divider calculator, and even respecting the schematic values, I couldn't make it work. Maybe someone with more experience will see something else that needs to be adapted for 5v. |
|
|
|
Post by haggardgrin on Jan 16, 2023 9:45:47 GMT
Here is that circuit in the simulator tinyurl.com/2edfhd77Seems to work ok. I reduced the attack and decay 1M pot/1 uF combo to 100k/100nF only to get super short envelopes that we can see in the simulator. When building the circuit for real, the 1M pot/1 uF cap would produce envelopes of more useful length. Need to get my hands on some 5v op amps to test it out on bread board, anyone have some recommendations? |
|
|
|
Post by keurslagerkurt on Jan 16, 2023 15:30:06 GMT
Here is that circuit in the simulator tinyurl.com/2edfhd77Seems to work ok. I reduced the attack and decay 1M pot/1 uF combo to 100k/100nF only to get super short envelopes that we can see in the simulator. When building the circuit for real, the 1M pot/1 uF cap would produce envelopes of more useful length. Need to get my hands on some 5v op amps to test it out on bread board, anyone have some recommendations? Best opamps for AE uses (and the standard ones in all modules afaik) are MCP6001/2/4. I haven't build an AE envelopes myself yet, but it's def on my list of things i'd like to try. I know namke has build some that are incorporated in his micro drum modules? Or maybe these are just incorporated in the drum sound resonators in his case.. |
|
|
|
Post by waporwave on Jan 16, 2023 19:33:23 GMT
Unfortunately I still can't get the relaxation potentiometer to work well (at least not with those resistor values). Do you have any idea how this scheme could work as a filter with resonance? For the first part, you could try a bigger capacitor, I believe that would make attack and decay longer. For the second part, no I don't know how to make a resonant low pass filter, as I haven't made one myself yet, though I think it would be more involved. I might try to mess around with that, but Moritz Klein again has a walkthrough to build a pretty complete one.
I'm not exactly sure what you were saying didn't work about his other video, but for -12v to 12v logic, -12 would become ground, ground would become 2.5v, and 12v would become 5v, and then I believe the circuits would behave the same. Along with that you might need to do manual tweaking of amplification amounts I would guess? Not sure, but I was able to get his low pass filter design working on 5v in a circuit simulator using the above.
In any case I'm interested to hear what you're using this for, literally and figuratively. Are you using a brAEdboard along with your ae synths?
|
|
|
|
Post by waporwave on Jan 16, 2023 19:50:01 GMT
Here's the moritz klein thing in 5v, I don't know what you calculated that wouldn't work.
He probably explains it in that video, but this is essentially the same thing as what I suggested to you, but as a proper module. The input is triggered over a certain voltage level (by comparing it to a reference, and letting the op amp amplify) and buffered, then the output is also buffered with a 1k to limit current.
Edit: the range of the attack and decay in that link seem kinda crazy, it's because the timescale of the simulator is very slow. Also the graph autoscales which makes it kind of confusing, I think you can disable that by right clicking or something.
|
|
frndo
Full Member
Posts: 110
|
Post by frndo on Jan 16, 2023 20:01:36 GMT
Unfortunately I still can't get the relaxation potentiometer to work well (at least not with those resistor values). Do you have any idea how this scheme could work as a filter with resonance? For the first part, you could try a bigger capacitor, I believe that would make attack and decay longer. For the second part, no I don't know how to make a resonant low pass filter, as I haven't made one myself yet, though I think it would be more involved. I might try to mess around with that, but Moritz Klein again has a walkthrough to build a pretty complete one.
I'm not exactly sure what you were saying didn't work about his other video, but for -12v to 12v logic, -12 would become ground, ground would become 2.5v, and 12v would become 5v, and then I believe the circuits would behave the same. Along with that you might need to do manual tweaking of amplification amounts I would guess? Not sure, but I was able to get his low pass filter design working on 5v in a circuit simulator using the above.
In any case I'm interested to hear what you're using this for, literally and figuratively. Are you using a brAEdboard along with your ae synths?
Hello! I'm going to try again with a larger capacitor. I was asking you about the filter, since you mentioned that the first example was basically a Low Pass Filter. I use a conventional breadboard and I've been making modules on my own for a few months, I've gotten many to work, but I haven't had any luck with the envelopes; I'm looking to learn and use them especially for percussive sounds in the AEM, so I don't have a problem with short attack and release; I would also need some simple filter (I was trying with the state variable type made with the CMOS 4069 and I have managed to make it work partially). |
|
|
|
Post by keurslagerkurt on Jan 18, 2023 13:56:57 GMT
I have found an interesting, and very simple envelope generator in the 'Penfold synthesizer' book (kindly shared with me by @soli on the Discord server some time ago) Explanation from the book: "IC101 is one of the 2 input NOR gates from a CMOS 4001BE device, but here its two inputs are simply wired together so that it operates as a simple inverter. Normally R101 holds the input of IC101 low, which takes the output high. This results in TR102, being cut off and TR101 being biased hard into conduction. C101 is therefore held in the discharged state. If one of the keyboard switches is operated, this takes the input of 1C101 high and sends the output low. It is then TrIO2 that is switched on and TR101 that is cut off. C101 then charges via TR102, RV102, and R105. When the key is released the circuit reverts to its original state and C101 discharges by way of R104, R101, and Tr1O1. RV101 and RV102 therefore act respectively as the decay and attack time controls. Both times are adjustable from a few milliseconds to several seconds in duration."  For AE, the input 'switches' can be replaced by trigger inputs (or trigger inputs in parallel with a manual trigger button as in the AE 2Env). For CD4001BE there are quite some options, anything inverting CMOS style will do (eg CD4069, or even MCP600x wired as an inverting amplifier). Transistors shouldn't be to critical either. Looking at it, it should really just work as is on 5V as well! Haven't tested it on the breadboard myself yet, but this is a respected book, so it should work. Probably the 'hardest' parts to get are the huge pots (2M2). If you'd use smaller pots, the 'longest' attack and decay values will be significantly lower (same if you lower the capacitor value). |
|
frndo
Full Member
Posts: 110
|
Post by frndo on Jan 18, 2023 23:38:03 GMT
I have found an interesting, and very simple envelope generator in the 'Penfold synthesizer' book (kindly shared with me by @soli on the Discord server some time ago) Explanation from the book: "IC101 is one of the 2 input NOR gates from a CMOS 4001BE device, but here its two inputs are simply wired together so that it operates as a simple inverter. Normally R101 holds the input of IC101 low, which takes the output high. This results in TR102, being cut off and TR101 being biased hard into conduction. C101 is therefore held in the discharged state. If one of the keyboard switches is operated, this takes the input of 1C101 high and sends the output low. It is then TrIO2 that is switched on and TR101 that is cut off. C101 then charges via TR102, RV102, and R105. When the key is released the circuit reverts to its original state and C101 discharges by way of R104, R101, and Tr1O1. RV101 and RV102 therefore act respectively as the decay and attack time controls. Both times are adjustable from a few milliseconds to several seconds in duration." View AttachmentFor AE, the input 'switches' can be replaced by trigger inputs (or trigger inputs in parallel with a manual trigger button as in the AE 2Env). For CD4001BE there are quite some options, anything inverting CMOS style will do (eg CD4069, or even MCP600x wired as an inverting amplifier). Transistors shouldn't be to critical either. Looking at it, it should really just work as is on 5V as well! Haven't tested it on the breadboard myself yet, but this is a respected book, so it should work. Probably the 'hardest' parts to get are the huge pots (2M2). If you'd use smaller pots, the 'longest' attack and decay values will be significantly lower (same if you lower the capacitor value). That's great!! 4069 are always in stock! I'll testing in few days! Thanks to all for your answers |
|
|
|
Post by keurslagerkurt on Jan 19, 2023 12:52:17 GMT
That's great!! 4069 are always in stock! I'll testing in few days! Thanks to all for your answers Excited to see how it goes, let us know!  (and glad i could help!) |
|
mk
New Member
Posts: 1
|
Post by mk on Jun 28, 2024 15:33:55 GMT
Ray Wilson Noise Toaster simple A/D envelope is worth trying.  Attachments:
|
|
ben
Full Member
Posts: 124
|
Post by ben on Nov 19, 2024 15:24:08 GMT
Recently I've tried simple AD/AR envelope using 555 chip. It works fine. And not hard to make one. Here's a link to schematics and discussion about it: electro-music.com/forum/topic-60172.htmlAlso tried similar design, just with LM358 chip which also includes VCA circuit. Also easy built. But I'm not good in understanding electronics - VCA wasn't clean sounding, with some distortion. It might suit for some applications, but certainly not "transparent" vca. But my go-to envelope is using ElectricDruid chip, it runs on 5V. Chip itself is slightly more expensive than let's say 555 timer, but it requires less components and also is super flexible. Can be used as looping envelope, LFO, ADSR, can have CV input, etc. Here's a link to that, also with schematics: electricdruid.net/product/envgen8/Maybe someone knows a good VCA circuit? vactrol based vca so far for me is the most transparent, apart from the fact it's not super sharp with attack times... Tried a few transistor based VCA's, all sounded also kinda distorted, maybe just need to correctly align input to transistor input values, maybe just overdriving the transistor with too hot input, but I have no clue how to fix that. |
|
(and glad i could help!)
