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Post by solipsistnation on Nov 22, 2021 18:18:03 GMT
Okay. I love modular stuff-- endless evolving stuff is great fun and good for soaking my brain, but... I also like song structure. Verse-chorus-verse, verse-chorus-verse-bridge-chorus-breakdown-verse, whatever. Thematic evolution, returning to previous melodic structure as a way of building a song that starts and ends. The question is-- how would one do this in a modular setting? I'd like to be able to set up multiple sequences or changes and stuff. Let's say the basic verse-chorus-verse thing, right? Here are the ways to do this that I've come up with:
1. DAW. Record each bit, stitch the audio together, hope it lines up and the edits aren't too obvious. (This may mean multitracking or doing effects later in the process so you don't end up with weird delay artifacts at the start and end of each segment.) This is a lot of work and more like construction than performing. (Note: I am lazy.)
2. Switching. 3VCswitch or switchmatrix-- multiple sequencers, route them through some switch module and swap the CV/trigger inputs of your sound bits between different sources as the structure switches up. Advantage: you get structure and can swap around easily. Disadvantage: Sequencers are large and relatively expensive. I'm also assuming doing something like sequencers -> switch -> quantizer so they all stay in tune. Using the switchmatrix module means you could pretty easily set up each song segment and switch presets to do the appropriate routing. But if you've got, say, chords/melody/bass/rhythm, that gets complicated real fast. Even if you set up drums separately or don't bother with a Solina part, yeah. Potentally massively complex. (I'm okay with complex.)
3. Just fading stuff in and out or muting parts. The old-school way! Fades and mutes. It's all running all the time and you swap in the bits you want as you go. Requires not just multiple sequencers but also multiple sound sources. Lots more expensive and larger than the switching solution. (This is what I do now, with just fading stuff in.)
Am I missing things? I tend to get stuck in workflow ruts so I'm probably overlooking something or not thinking in a modular way, if that makes sense. People who do song structure, how are you doing it?
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Post by pt3r on Nov 22, 2021 18:29:31 GMT
You can use a switch matrix that get controlled via and external (midi) sequencer, the SQ1 could be an ideal little machine for that, or use some software sequencer.
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Post by slowscape on Nov 22, 2021 19:14:15 GMT
You could always cheat and use a beat step pro, or similar  Then it would just be a question of choreographing what you do with the dials and switches for timbre (or whatever), while the midi controller handles all the notes This is more or less what I do, but I've also been too lazy to sequence anything longer than 4 bars |
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Post by maydonpoliris on Nov 22, 2021 19:14:25 GMT
I'm hoping to do some structure using the 6mute when it arrives which you've already mentioned muting and fading.
The light up pads on the 6mute will help me more to visualise what's going on and combining that with the 4IO will include muting external synths too bringing in breaks or changing it up.
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pol
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Post by pol on Nov 22, 2021 19:20:29 GMT
3. Just fading stuff in and out or muting parts. The old-school way! Fades and mutes. It's all running all the time and you swap in the bits you want as you go. Requires not just multiple sequencers but also multiple sound sources. Lots more expensive and larger than the switching solution. (This is what I do now, with just fading stuff in.)
I do this with my studio, not just the AE! I can even "automate" it by the synth volume level in its midi sequence,  |
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pol
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Post by pol on Nov 22, 2021 19:31:00 GMT
Not sure entirely what you are after from your post, but I often trigger my AE over midi so can just sequence it as per a "normal" synth. The other thing I sometimes do is that the "pad"/main theme of the song disappears for a bit - a break but not just a bar or 2. This can just be with the mixer fader but also the sequence programming, (not AE obviously). In the last full piece that had the AE in it, the AE was a sound processor, the pitched part came from a sampler so could do what I wanted arrangement wise.
One thing I do want to try with the AE to do a "song structure" is changing the triggers on the multimode divider; if this was a prominent bass/lead line it would alter it quite significantly. As part of, or additional to, that idea I was thinking about using the reset inputs on the AE sequencer(s) to change the sequence length as well but haven't worked out how to do that through a whole song, other than manually.... The joystick Gate out would be handy for this.
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Post by Kyaa on Nov 22, 2021 19:37:27 GMT
The music I love (and therefore the music I want to create) is very melodic and structure based, so I'm definitely in the same camp as you. I actually picked up the keystep pro recently and I'm hoping it can give me some additional structure.
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Post by solipsistnation on Nov 22, 2021 19:41:35 GMT
Not sure entirely what you are after from your post, but I often trigger my AE over midi so can just sequence it as per a "normal" synth. Pretty much just suggestions and other people's workflows, which I am getting, so that's cool. 8) Thanks! |
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pol
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Post by pol on Nov 22, 2021 20:49:43 GMT
The music I love (and therefore the music I want to create) is very melodic and structure based, so I'm definitely in the same camp as you. I actually picked up the keystep pro recently and I'm hoping it can give me some additional structure. It does have chain mode to connect up to 16 patterns together, and 4 independent tracks which could be muted/unmuted so structure is available! I have the Beatstep Pro and must admit I haven't used the chain mode yet.... |
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Post by MaxRichardson97 on Nov 22, 2021 21:52:31 GMT
So - obviously this is entirely opinion, no hard, concrete fact. In my eyes, the classical idea of theme and variation is a natural fit with modular music.
When you think about the way composers shape melodies using rhythms and such, it's a natural fit for modular synthesis. I find verse/chorus structures to be stifling to me (obviously I'm not trying to criticize anyone's workflow - it's entirely personal!) But as you say, multiple sequencers just don't flow nicely the way that gradually shifting existing patterns does.
To me, the RBSS is invaluable for this. It's amazing to gradually hear a melody morph into something new, and even more amazing to not be in control of the end result! This way, you can get an endless flow of new material, something that's just not possible using traditional popular verse/chorus structures.
For inspiration, I love Shostakovich's fifth. The usage of themes is just immense, it's such a rich piece!
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Post by funbun on Nov 22, 2021 23:26:42 GMT
Yeah, exactly. Listen to Keyboard Study #1 by Terry Riley written in 1964. Nothing that couldn't be done with modular. Yes, we need a complex sequencer, but modular was meant for this kind of music.
No offense, but popular music is so limited and uninteresting.
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S&E
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Post by S&E on Nov 23, 2021 3:26:00 GMT
My AE systems are not built yet but in my planning for ordering I made it so I can multi-track to 1010 bluebox. From there I plan to import into Ableton to apply the more unusual effects, bring in and out, mix, etc. I do plan to use some of the AE mixers but it will be mostly for sound construction.
As far as sequencing, I plan to use AE sequencers as well as external ones.
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Post by pt3r on Nov 23, 2021 7:32:31 GMT
Personally, I'm not a big fan of the hard pop song structures, but if I you must switch up elements in the composition then I prefer to do it manually, which sounds more organic than an X bar count and switch, or hand it over to some (uncertain) logic in the patch, which is my preferred way since the piece can surprise you as the composer. different sequence lengths run alongside each other, (weighed) random jumps in preprogrammed sequences. I takes 2 to tango, me and my rack. Sometimes I let the rack do most of the decisions sometimes it's me, the rack never complained about it. |
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Post by Gaëtan on Nov 23, 2021 7:57:18 GMT
Yeah I also see it very differently. I think of structure more in terms of textures and intensity rather than traditional song parts. I also see my tracks as performances so improvisation takes the front seat. I often have a rough idea in my head (start with this sound, then ram up the intensity, bring in this sound, etc.) and then I fill in as I see fit. Of course I'm not going to do traditional songs that way, but I don't want to. If I wanted to I'd just use a DAW.
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Post by admin on Nov 23, 2021 8:02:48 GMT
Yeah, exactly. Listen to Keyboard Study #1 by Terry Riley written in 1964. Nothing that couldn't be done with modular. Yes, we need a complex sequencer, but modular was meant for this kind of music. Thank you funbun, this is such a beautiful piece! |
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Post by pt3r on Nov 23, 2021 8:17:02 GMT
Modular is also just an instrument, except depending on the patch and build it can also do stuff without interference of the operator, composer. I you want everything structured then use external sequencers in whatever shape or color. Those will let you save structures etc. but IMO you will miss out on the real power/spirit of modular where most magic happens in the now, you hear it, you're better recording 'cause it will probably sound completely different tomorrow.
I can't remember who mentioned it an interview where some known pop song used an ARP2600 patch to create a very iconic sound but that was recorded once, because they never managed to recreate that same exact sound. I like that idea of the past is the past, it can't be changed or recreated, things are happening now.
Anywho, enough treehuggy rambling. Different strokes for different folks.
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Post by pt3r on Nov 23, 2021 9:43:18 GMT
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jubin
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Post by jubin on Nov 23, 2021 13:00:10 GMT
Modular is also just an instrument, except depending on the patch and build it can also do stuff without interference of the operator, composer. I you want everything structured then use external sequencers in whatever shape or color. Those will let you save structures etc. but IMO you will miss out on the real power/spirit of modular where most magic happens in the now, you hear it, you're better recording 'cause it will probably sound completely different tomorrow. I can't remember who mentioned it an interview where some known pop song used an ARP2600 patch to create a very iconic sound but that was recorded once, because they never managed to recreate that same exact sound. I like that idea of the past is the past, it can't be changed or recreated, things are happening now. Anywho, enough treehuggy rambling. Different strokes for different folks. I agree with this. 100%.
On my side I tried too hard in the past to find the right configuration to be able to have tight song structures and play them live. In the end, I ended up delegating a lot of things to machines, so at the end it felt... too comfortable ?
I took more pleasure to make DJ sets at the end, because you carry less stuff on stage, for the same performance.
So now I keep two approaches : recording everything I do, delete it if necessary, chop samples from it, then using a DAW to make something else from it. Or, jamming, and keeping the performance as it is.
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Post by solipsistnation on Nov 23, 2021 16:47:01 GMT
This is a pretty cool discussion. Thank you all for talking about how you do stuff. My background is a bit of heavily-sequenced and edited stuff and a bit of improvised-- my last band would show up with a lot of little boxes (back in the days when people were just realizing that x0x-style stuff was neat, and before everyone was making their own. The AdaFruit x0xb0x had just been announced, for example) and we'd sync them up and more or less jam with drum machines and usually a couple of keyboards. We were doing DAWless jams before that became the kind of thing people joked about. Here's a recording of a gig we played in 1997:  This was 4 people, 3 of us running something like 4 different drum machines (606, 707, some other random stuff), an MC-202, probably a Wavestation and Juno-106 and an Emax HD and Korg Prophecy doing arpeggiated stuff, and one guy sitting on the mixing board running things through a collection of lo-fi pitch shifters and delay and switching effects in and out. We did structure by playing something until we got tired of it and then swapping in other things. With 4 people, we could trade melody/arpeggio parts back and forth and as long as it was all clocked it would stay in sync. One of us would set up a loop and then somebody would lean on the Wavestation or Juno for pads or lead parts, and so on. It was a blast. So I guess what I'd like to do is get some of that feel-- live entirely in modular-land with no external sequencers (maybe syncing to a drum machine or something, or, you know, maybe not!), but also be able to swap back and forth between parts and things. I'm not likely to get to hang out with 3 other people to do this anytime soon, so it has to be all stuff I can drive. You've all given me some good suggestions. I'm not going to have a chance to patch anything up for a week or so, and I may end up tearing down and rearranging my rig, but I have lots to think about and plan in order to make this kind of improvised-over-sequences-type thing work. I'll probably end up with a switchmatrix (at some point, I guess, considering shipping) so I can do the sequencer-swapping I'm thinking of. I've already done some stuff with stacking a SEQ16 and SEQ8 (clocked much slower) in order to transpose the SEQ16, which works nicely.
Anyway, thanks. I'm a process sort of person, so hearing how other people do their things is always fascinating. 8)
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Post by pt3r on Nov 23, 2021 17:09:38 GMT
That's always the great thing about these threads you hear about other workflows, some ideads you can integrate in your own workflow or whatnot.
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Post by lukylutte on Nov 28, 2021 7:37:42 GMT
Great information in here! Got me thinking about next patch ideas.
I just happened to focus on this drastic changes at my last jam in the studio. I found really effective the use of switch for sequencer and fading parts voices. On the 3 switch I can jump between 2 sequences for 3 voices. The three voices (rather dry) goes in the dronmix before effect and stuff. So I can cross fade two voice switch to a different sequences and tone (other wave table or wave shape). I tried to do this while making a drum brake. So this gives me a bar to change tone and sequences which works... ..... Kinda
Still got to experiment.
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Post by lukylutte on Nov 28, 2021 7:41:44 GMT
Just was watching this couple of days ago (now you know why I was experimenting with this at last jam🤪). It's more about brakes but work for general changes and structure as well.
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Post by maydonpoliris on Nov 28, 2021 8:19:04 GMT
That's pretty awesome. I need some of those dancing minions.
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Post by lukylutte on Nov 28, 2021 13:15:50 GMT
I forgot to mentioned the 6mute which is a must for live changes.
Here can see one of the first jam of that "break" session so it's why there not really happening much. But at least you can follow what we're doing on which modules...
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Post by keurslagerkurt on Nov 28, 2021 17:47:22 GMT
Have succesfully used the Switch Matrix today to get some song structure going on!
While I do agree with the general sentiment above, that Modular excells at slow changes and gradual morphing, I do myself enjoy a good 'shift' in melody/drums from time to time. I must say that the Switch Matrix is a breeeeeze to use for this. You can patch in your different melodies/triggers to the left, patch your corresponding Pitch/envelopes to the right, and then select which ones you want to go where for which parts. Was so useful & easy that it made me think about getting a second Matrix haha!
PS: was super interesting already reading everyones methods & opinions here!
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